metrotps

Johnson spotted for sale

35 posts in this topic

Hi Everyone. Just joined. I just sent a MO for this Johnson. Does it look good? I know the stock is not military correct. I just sent a PM to Mr Scott for possible parts. Anything else anybody can see that looks like it will need attention? I want it as close to military configuration as possible. Thanks much, Steve

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Congratulations on acquiring an excellent looking rifle. As you said, the buttstock and forestock are probably Winfield Sporter. To go back to military configuration you'll need, at the very least, one of Joe's buttstocks. The forestock or "front hand guard" could possibly be notched for the new front retaining pin that you'll be needing. The front pin on Sporter models was usually replaced by a short one and then covered by the "new" forestock.

So you might see if Joe has an original type front pin and either notch the forestock yourself or buy one of Joe's new ones. You'll need the little metal "plate" that the original type pin rotates against. It's pressed and nailed into the notch in the military forestock. I have been able to make these myself and you probably can too...... if you can't find one.http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/j21.jpg

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Thanks much! I am leaning toward asking Mr Scott for a new wood set. I have not received the rifle yet, hoping for early next week. Part of me says just leave it as is, but I much prefer going back to it's original intent/design. I have rescued sporterized 1903s before. Steve

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Looks like a nice rifle! Unlike some sporters, this one does not look to have had the metal disturbed. The bayonet mount and front sight look original.

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I have been faced with the same decision: "Restore an excellent Winfield Sporter to original military configuration.....OR....leave a very beautiful rifle alone?"

My decision was to leave it alone and just BUY another 1941 Johnson still in it's original MILITARY glory!

That's how it started for me. Now I'm hooked.

Now my quandry is this: "Should I take a well done "V" model Johnson and make it an "R" model again?" In which configuration is it worth more: "V" models seem to be more scarce, but the vertical magazine sure detracts from the aesthetics of a nice rotary magazine model.

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I am afraid that unless I want to sleep in the garage for a while, or sell some other stuff, the option of buying another Johnson is not on the table LOL! The General was nice enough to let me buy one! Not sure how hard it is to swap stocks, it may be reasonable to buy a matched set from Mr Scott, then keep the stuff I have.

I will have to research the V and R model, sounds cool. You are talking about something different than the LMG I assume?

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All else being equal, the V model would have more collector $$ value, if only because not many were made, compared with R model.

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I see now what a V and R model is. The V must be very rare. Mr Johnson, any relation?

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If you have a original vertical magazine model, leave it alone. About two notches above "EXTREMELY RARE". I have seen two R models converted to box magazines, have one of them for parts. Very poorly done. Research subject well. Many years ago, there was a commercial "V" sporter in Port Arthur, Texas, at a gun shop whose owner was killed during robbery. Found a person who owned it afterwards then sold it locally. Whereabouts now unknown. A couple of years ago, there were several fake "prototype" Johnson lmg's up for auction with serial numbers such as X0_______. I examined them at Tulsa and they were newly made. I would not be surprised if some new "V" models show up sometime from same source.

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To Steve above....yes, I am related. I'm Mel Johnson's 2nd son. More importantly, for everyone above, including Tanker, please note Joseph Scott's remarks above regarding "V" models. If you actually have one at present, hang onto it and, if appropriate, have it properly evaluated. Proceed with caution if planning to buy one.

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Very cool Mr Johnson! Nice to meet you! I was lucky enough to talk to Mr Benjamin Patton, GEN Patton's grandson. He has an excellent book called "Growing up Patton". He autographed some copies for myself and the staff officers in my Army Guard unit. I love talking to family's of our WW2 hero's!

I do not have a V model, feeling lucky to just have a regular R model with Winfield furniture coming. I would like military type furniture though. Since my gun fund is not infinite (wish it was) I will have to either restore this one, or wait a bit to find an original military configuration model. There is such a wealth of information here, I really appreciate the website your all of your help. Steve

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Joe and Ed,
I appreciate the good advice. I need to be sure that the "V" model, which I have, is not just a very well done look-a-like.
I've got the "Johnson Book" by Canfield and I've read several other reference books too.
The workmanship on my "V" type rifle is so exceptional that I have a difficult time believing that an average gunsmith could, or would have, done such a excellent job. With that being said, there ARE some very good individual gunsmiths who are quite capable.
I will try to get some decent pictures and let you guys look at them to see what you think.

Steve(WA).....with the military style wood you are getting from Joe, you should be close enough to original configuration to make you well satisfied. I suppose it all depends on how much of a "purist" that you are. It takes a lot of money to procure the "Holy Grail of Johnsons."

The Rotary magazine 1941 Johnson that I'm so proud of is close enough to perfect for me. :D Let's say it's as perfect as I can afford. It makes me happy and that's all that matters.
:)
When you receive your new rifle, please take before and after pictures for us. I'm expecting the "after" pictures will make most of us drool.

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Thanks to all of you. Yes, will do some before and after for sure. Lyne sent some decent current pictures. Still a few weeks away I am thinking. Steve

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Glad you got it Steve. :) When it gets to you maybe we can get together and compare notes. I have a Winfield sporter and live in Mukilteo

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Nice! Be glad to Metrotps! I am down between Shelton and Oly. Yours must be just like mine.... blued or parkerized?

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That is one tiny picture! I can't get it to open beyond what it shows as a thumbnail. Outline looks good though LOL! I have been talking to Mr Scott, I want to switch my wood furniture over to his military set. I will keep the Winfield stuff too, as it is part of the weapon's history.

Did Winfield strip finish from military contract guns and then blue them? I will have to research a bit more. Just received Mr Canfield's book today, but have not had a chance to get through it yet. Steve

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Winfield tended to buff the metal work before bluing. Many had a high polish finish.

JSAR reciever markings were originally roll marked so a tiny bit of metal was displaced during marking. This resulted in alphanumerics with slightly raised edges. If the markings today are smooth it probably means the the gun no longer has its original finish, even if it's presently parked.

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Interesting, will have to check mine when it comes in. Should be in the mail Monday. Can't wait!

The other part of me wants another Johnson! My wife would be pretty darn unhappy, but thinking of selling or trading some fairly high end HK rifles. I am getting out of my "black rifle" craze I think! Damn Johnson's!

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It is my opinion that Winfield probably chose rifles that were pitted or rusted to polish and blue. Pretty guns were desirable at that time and it gave them a way to use the poor quality guns. Not all polished and blued guns were done by Winfield, lots were done by gunsmiths. I have seen several where the first line of lettering and the edge was gone.

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If you are in western Washington somebody had a bayonet for the Johnson for 150 bucks at the WAC gun show this weekend. It was missing the clip though...

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Dang! Yep, got to the WAC from time to time. In the Guard still, always seems to fall on drill weekend. You didn't buy it?

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I went to a local gunshow this past weekend also. On my second walk around I found a Johnson bayonet almost obscured by a cheap stilleto boot knife that was on top of it.

All I could see of the price tag was "$50------

I was only excited for a second until I picked up the tag.....ah....that would be $500.00 sir....and there is no sheath. I passed on it.

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