Melvin Johnsons Rifle for sale.

[Imgone 0]

Is this 1941 actually what they claim it is ?  I just saw this now and realize it just ended.       https://live.amoskeagauction.com/m/lot-details/index/catalog/23/lot/10534?url=%2Fm%2Fview-auctions%2Fcatalog%2Fid%2F23%3Fpage%3D1%26view%3Dgrid%26key%3D1941%2520Johnson%26sale%3Dundefined%26catm%3Dany%26order%3Dorder_num%26xclosed%3Dno%26featured%3Dno&fbclid=IwAR2UiziI6sMaA6vy_4WFDTHXgIJMG58Fs7C-x7jfp2tlDMb__jQD3SwEKrY

[ArtR 0]

Hi all

Well, that is some story, though none of it appears to have forced the sale price up! However, a look at the production logs shows that neither the bolt or barrel at time of manufacture matched the receiver number. So they must have been through some sort of 'rebuild'. I find that hard to believe, but it could have happened to one of the Melvin guns.

The skinny on SN 9710:

Received from Cranston Arms 3/18/42  Stock 2 Barrel 0865F Hammer Block 9178 Hammer  9098 Bolt A0249 Locking Cam 9013 Firing Pin  A4685 Extractor 8489 Magazine A2729 Transferred 3/19/42 JA Inc/NPC

Hopefully Ed can chime in if he knows anything about guns in the estate that might have been disposed of.

[Bruce Canfield 0]

I would also be interested in what Ed has to say about this rifle.

[Brian Alpert 0]

Hal "Doc" Ross  AKA Old Benicia Armory supposedly bought out the remnants of Winfield Arms when it went under in the 60's  They produced and sold the "Queens Guard Carbines" and other rare Johnson items.  He also claimed to have had a number of things from the Johnson estate.  When challenged on this, he claimed that her got the things from someone, deceased, who got them from the Johnson estate.  I am sure Ed will shed more light on this.  

[Bruce Canfield 0]

The "Queen's Guard Carbines,", the Mexican "semi-auto prototype LMG"s and a plethora of other fakes (albeit usually well done) were purportedly created by this entity. A number of people were taken for big bucks.

[ArtR 0]

After looking again at the "image" for the rifle, it is also possible that it has "after market" wood on it....just "too" new looking. It appears that whoever bought this rifle was not taken in by the hype, as the final price was probably at what is now considered "average" price for a decent rifle.

[Ed Johnson 0]

To all: I am re-posting the advertised description here so we have it for the record.

"serial #9710, 30-06, 22" 1941-dated barrel with a bright excellent bore. The metal surfaces of this rifle retain about 98% of a period applied gray enamel finish showing some scattered light handling marks and some evident spots of pinprick pitting underneath the enamel along the magazine body. The rear right side of the receiver is marked with the Cranston Arms Co. triangle and small Dutch acceptance star. The smooth pistolgrip walnut buttstock and forend remain in excellent, almost as-new condition perhaps showing just an insignificant handling mark or two. The rifle is sighted with the Dutch meter rear sight, the sling swivels are intact and the action seems to function well mechanically. Interestingly the bolt body and barrel are both stamp-numbered matching the gun, normally these parts were not matched at the factory but they do not show signs of having been re-stamped. Included with this rifle is what appears to be an original Johnson rifle blueprint and a note from Mr. R. Stephen Dorsey, staff editor of the Gun Report magazine dated April 21, 1988 that describes this rifle by serial number as having been purchased from the estate of Melvin Johnson by a Mr. Hal C. Ross in 1978. The rifle was then purchased by Mr. Dorsey in 1987 and finally by the consignor in 1988. The note stated that Mr. Ross purchased a number of 1941 rifles and other experimental arms from the Johnson estate and also says the include blueprint is also likely from the estate. Also included is certified copy of an original note from Mr. Ross stating he bought this rifle serial #9710 (along with #'s 4577 and B4665) from the Johnson estate. The blueprint measures 36"x24" and remains in very good plus condition showing some small creases, scuffs and a couple tiny tears along the edges but otherwise shows crisp images and text detailing the actions on the 1941 semi-auto rifle and the Johnson light machine gun. A wonderful example with some fascinating provenance that would make an excellent addition to any advanced martial or American arms collection. (139353-3) {C&R}"

At no time did my father or his family ever sell any Johnson rifles or products directly to Mr Ross, aka "Doc Ross." We've run into these "stories" before. Years ago, when I got fed up with hearing them, I contacted Ross directly and confronted him. After trying to duck me for a while, he finally acknowledged that he had purchased Johnson products from another source, who claimed they were part of the "Johnson Estate."  As for the blueprint, those could have come from many sources. So, in summary, it would seem obvious that Ross used "stories" to increase the value of the items he was selling.                             Edward R. Johnson, 2nd son of Melvin M. Johnson, Jr. - the inventor

 

[Brian Alpert 0]

Go by the old adage "buy the gun, not the story"

Sometime when I get a chance, I will post pictures of some of these "creations"

[Imgone 0]

Thank you Mr Johnson, I was just asking to see if it was a true history of the rifle.

[ArtR 0]

Ed

Thanks for chiming in, as I believe that "this topic" came up once before, if not more, in the past, and I seem to "remember" what you have just restated. To think that this "story" is still being dealt out is amazing.

[Yuccacapt343 0]

Thank you, Ed for your response! I've been excited to read your input. Hopefully, whomever it was that purchased this rifle, did so because of what it is. Not because of a made up provenance.

Back in the late 70's, my dad had a chance to purchase a Henry rifle that had supposedly belonged to Poncho Villa. The dealer wanted over 10k for it but couldn't provide the provenance to back his story. Thankfully, my dad walked without purchasing.

[Brian Alpert 0]

Here are a few more "creations" offered as Crested originals....Queens Guard Carbines and Mexican crested LMG semi-autos.  There were supposedly some done with Fench crests but I have not seen one. The crests were done with pantograph machines and when we compared 2 several years ago at a Johnson gathering, they were of different sizes.  They are all beautifully done but not Johnson factory creations.  They occasionally appear for sale as rare prototypes or unique factory creations.

[ArtR 0]

Brian..... Some of the new comers may not remember the previous comparisons, so, as always, thanks for the information and the photos

[Brian Alpert 0]

Doc was  not the only fakir of rare Johnson prototypes.  Another well known Southern California dealer who specialized in in mint Colt 1911s produced a number of fake prototypes.  I remember one in particular with an 8mm Dror box magazine grafted on a 41 JLMG.

[Ed Johnson 0]

I will never understand some of the things that people will do. I picture Dad laughing at some of this.....or slowly spinning....take your choice.

[Brian Alpert 0]

It is amazing what people want to believe.  Many years ago when the subject of Queens Guard Carbines came up, there were literally arguments about the authenticity of the carbines.  I remember one individual stating that if these were not factory made, they should have been.  Doc has never fessed up to producing them yet they all came from his firm Old Benicia Armory.  At one point he said that the lot were in a partially finished state when he bought out the remnants of Winfield and he just finished them up.  It would bet interesting to see how many are out there.  I know of 3 but there must be a few more.