ArtR

A friend, who is on GunBroker, passed an email to the seller along with a link to this forum earlier last week advising that he might want to view comments on the forum and maybe reconsider the asking price on this piece. Noticed this AM that after one week there have been many views but not one bid. With a week to go, he could change price or pull the listing.

Hey Walt, Bob will let you borrow his copy of "the book" to brush up on these terms....ha ha...ArtR

I think if you look at JCMH's post earlier on this board about "My Second Johnson" you very well might see the same gun....

As my kids would say, "TUKE", the ugliest kid ever - wow, can honestly say I have never seen one like that...but could really be one of a kind...most "movie" copies I have seen have been pretty good looking, though not too good...this one takes the cake for not too good also. Looks like a good one for the collection though...put that one in front of the gun case and let them borrow that one if they break in.

I am neither a ballistician nor gunsmith, so bear with me here. I cannot believe all arms manufacturers test all barrels for true straight prior to assembly. Neither can I believe that all manufacturing stresses are relieved prior to assembly. While any barrel deviations out of true straight would create stresses on the projectile and the barrel, the real question is, how many other barrels are out there today with minor issues with out of true straight? My guess is there are more than we would want to count. Also consider where the out of true straight may have come from? Did it occur originally in the factory or did it happen one day when a hot barrel went through some abnormal cooling? Or was it the result of normal built in stresses realigning themselves? That is, maybe this was a barrel that was cold stressed to a straight position at the factory just realigning itself? The next question to pose would be, if there are barrels that are out of true, what is an acceptable deviation? Is it as little as .001" or is a much higher number acceptable? We seldom worry about throat erosion until it gets well above a 2 or 3. While none of us want this, after the first shot, it begins. Johnson Automatics employed the use of a cold straightening press. At what deviation did they need to begin to straighten? To what level did they straighten it? What was considered straight enough? Another question that needs to be answered is has it affected the accuracy of the barrel? Is it the dynamics on the projectile going down the barrel or those acting on it just as it leaves the barrel that are going to really affect accuracy. Once the projectile has achieved velocity and rifling has begun its rotation, after it leaves the barrel, other than an unanticipated obstruction, normally only gravity, drag, and wind forces act on the projectile until it reaches the target. Unless the barrel was truly out of round or was bent so grotesquely that it would be an obstruction, at what point does this become an issue?

For anyone looking Listing as: "M1 Carbine - It is a 5.7MM Johnson Spitfire. " http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976680412.htm

This guy claims to produce Spitfire brass from .30Carbine www.dustinbrass.com Has an auction on AA you can check out http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayi...itemnum=7222908

Up for grabs is a nearly complete box (28/30) of Spitfire ammo on Auction Arms tho the starting bid might be a bit daunting: http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayi...itemnum=7027088

There have been several offered on sites like AuctionArms and the like. Most are from very good to excellent condition, except the rubber band normally is non-existant...due to aging. The pricing often has approached $200 or more for them. Good ones include the box, targets, and gallery pieces. There is reference to the gun and pictures on pages 212-214 of the book, "Johnson Rifles and Machine Guns" by Bruce N Canfield, with Robert L Lamoreaux and Edward R. Johnson.

50 rds Square D 5.7 mm Johnson Spitfire Ammo http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayi...itemnum=6919398

I agree with Walt... for $2k for a "complete" JSAR, even though modified, is a deal. To "restore" it could cost, but to bring it back to "like original" condition may not be as much. Joe Scott is a good source for replacement, Joe Scott MFG, parts. He even sells complete barrel assembly's (includes bayo lug) ready to shoot. Visit Joe's web site (http://www.pernet.net/~jmscott). You can find replacement, not original, stocks. Watch the auction sites. Occasionally you will run into an original stock or forestock. Be prepared to pay for either. Also, get a copy of the "book", "Johnson Rifles and Machine Guns" by Bruce Canfield with Robert Lamouraux and Edward R Johnson, (Mevin's son). This is truly a great resource and companion for your find. Also, all the contributors to this web forum are a wealth of knowledge and help. Welcome aboard. ArtR

Well, for what it is worth, here is my take on 0039: Someone will probably hype it up as a "low SN" JSAR, probably on one of the "brighter" auction sites, and being as some do not know anything at all about JSARS in general, or the SN issue in particular, someone will bite and buy. Then the word will get out about the high price someone got for their JSAR and the bidding wars will be on again. What is really needed on the auction sites is a way for the public to make comments about items up for auction. Or at least a forum for buyers to ask questions about the items up for bid. It might slow down some of the price escalations, and it might make a few guys more honest in their descriptions.

Rodd Looks like an all original configuration rifle, with character/battle scars. Noticed the buttstock does not have "cheek" pieces. Only major issue is the crack in the buttstock. While not pristine, a very nice piece just the same. Will be interested to know how you make out on the SN matchup. Can just about read barrel SN, looks like "5664E" or "5654E". Big plus is the fine positioning of "the book" (Johnson Rifles and Machine Guns) in a couple of the pictures. You will find that it is great reading if you have not already gone from cover to cover.

Bob, possibly a comparison of the PN's from the other USMC (or GIFT) guns to this gun might confirm your suspicions. BTW, Joe, none of my parts matched the list for your gun. Sorry.

Great find, Joe. Even though not an "original parts" gun, having one of the confirmed SN's is about as thrilling a thing I have heard in quite some time. I still defer back to my "historical post" where I suggested that if we kept a log somewhere of the parts that we do know of, some of us might be willing to trade parts to help "restore" someones gun to original condition. Knowing full well that my gun is not all original parts, if I had a part that belonged in that gun, I would be willing to talk with you about a trade. Just the same, this brightened an otherwise dull, and snowy weekend!!!!

Seems that I read somewhere that it was Aleppo Street, Providence, RI, but I may be wrong. That may have been a later manufacturing facility. Ed, Bruce, or Bob should have a more accurate locations.

Have read the "book" and cannot remember reading much about stocks/forends. I could not find any index item on stock, buttstock, forend, so here is my question. Were the stocks, both forend and butt, manufactured by the same company and was only one supplier involved? This might answer some questions regarding stock materials, coloring, and the like.

I have to appologize for not checking back on this thread sooner, but wow.... Just need to let you guys know, if anyone wants a guinea pig to run some material by, I love to read. Do not know how much editorial help I would be, but who knows. Recently, I heard or read somewhere, maybe I read it in Rifleman. that there is a new or revised '1903 Springfield' book out by Bruce, so you can guess what I am in the market for. While I truly enjoy Bruce's stuff, he really needs some competition on my book shelf, so Jim, bring it on!!!!

Folks, if you have just bought a JSAR or are seriously contemplating buying one, you know the price that a good JSAR will fetch. While I am a serious supporter of this forum, I think you should each also spring for the price of the subject book. At about $50, this book is a bargain and will answer many of the questions that you might have or are looking to ask prior to buying. It also makes darn good reading and a nice supplement to the rifle when you have it. I purchased mine before I bought and am darn glad that I did. I think you can still order it direct from the author's site and I think you can still get the author(s) autograph. Correct me if I am wrong on that last statement. All in all, an excellent book, good investment, and great reference when showing off one of your prize rifles. Also, sometime in the future, I understand a new book is in the works. I for one am looking forward to the work.

Sandy Many of us know and understand how you feel. So few JSARs around and fewer still that show up for sale. Then to suddenly watch the prices skyrocket in the past few years only made the unattainable further from reach. I never thought I would be able to get one. A few years ago when I got mine, my story was much like yours. I went to show after show always looking for a JSAR, but often buying something else, knowing full well I was spending the money I had saved for a JSAR on something else only to put the new acquisition in the safe. Then at one show, I saw "the gun" in the hands of another admirer and I could only drool. Anxiously, I walked around for quite awhile, keeping my eye on the gun and the guy there talking with the "seller". I kept going back, just wanting to talk with the seller, but the other fellow was always there. Then finally he was gone. Quickly, I walked up and asked if I could look at the gun and was surprised by the answer. "Go ahead. I am just watching this table for someone. There was another guy looking at it, but he got tired of waiting for the owner to come back." Imagine my relief when the owner arrived shortly after. Then I asked him about the gun. He had picked the gun up at another show several months earlier down south and decided that it was not what he really wanted and it was for sale. We dickered on price and while it was more than I had wanted to pay, we closed the deal. In my case, I walked out with the gun, but my knees were still wobbly, my hands shaking and sweaty, and I was a bit giddy. Sure, I had paid more than I wanted. But finally I had acquired the unattainable. Now whenever I look at it or handle it, I know what many other guys have been through, and probably will go through. I can only wonder, when it comes time to "liquidate" my treasures, what "my JSAR" will fetch? And what the buyer will feel like after?

Stan: Joe is really being modest. He made a video he sells that shows you how to take your rifle apart and reassemble it. He also manufactures/machines parts for the JSAR. You can contact him at his e-mail address. He also had a website with photos of some items that he has for sale. You should get in touch with him. ArtR

Jim Once again, thanks a lot. And thanks to Ed for keeping us posted on what was in the works. Go JSARS! Art