Bruce Canfield

It's a "fantasy" piece. (IMHO)

I have to agree totally with Bob. I would be surprised if any of the transferable Class III Johnson LMGs went for less than $50K. It will be interesting to see how it actually goes.

I also saw the M1941 Johnson LMG being auctioned. If it goes for anywhere near the highest bid estimate, someone is going to get a bargain. For some reason, they have the much rarer M1944 Johnson LMG at a substaintially lower bid estimate than the M1941 LMG. It'll be interesting to see what these guns will ultimately sell for.

Whoever wrote the ad copy for the auction house should win some sort of award for creative writing! My absolute favorite passage was the comment "...armory style handling." What in the world is "armory style handling"?

Thanks for providing the link, Jim.

The M1941 Johnson rifles left the factory with leather slings made to the Dutch specifications. These were unique to the Johnson rifle and had a brass button on the lower end and a leather thong on the upper end. The sling is pictured on page 95 of the book "Johnson Rifles and Machine Guns."

I'm glad you enjoyed the book and thanks for the kind words. There needs to be a lot of credit given to the co-authors, Bob Lamoreaux and Ed Johnson. Bob has worked for decades compiling a lot of this information and the book would not have been possible without his efforts. Ed's personal insights into his Dad's work were also invaluable. The webmaster, Jim Pullen, also provided a lot of valuable information and data. This book was very much a group effort.

No is the correct answer.

I've seen one of these not too long ago (it may be the same one listed). It's strictly a "fantasy item."

Based on the limited amount of information that can be garnered from the photos, the rifle appears to be original with the exception of the refinished stock. Remove the buttplate and check to see how many holes are in the butt to determine if the stock is legit or has been replaced. Judging the originality of the parkerizing based on photos is problematic but the markings do not appear to be "washed out," which would suggest the metal has not been refinished (although the photos are not clear enough to be certain). The issue regarding the serial numbers on the parts is often overblown and is just not that important with Johnson rifles as none of the rifles were ever assembled with all "matching" parts. As stated, the production ledger for the "no prefix" rifles is available and the parts that were on the rifles when they left the factory can usually be ascertained. This is not the case for the "A" or "B" prefix rifles since the production ledgers have not turned up. Having the "correct" numbered parts on a no-prefix rifle is a nice touch, but a rifle is not normally devalued to any extent if the parts have been swapped. The numbers on the parts of Johnson rifles is just not a big deal as compared to many other military weapons. All other things being equal, there is no difference in value between "no prefix," "A" prefix or "B" prefix rifles. The sling on the rifle is a US M1907 sling and is clearly not the original factory sling (which was a totally different design). Values of Johnson rifles are dependent on condition and degree of originality and can range from $3500 or so to $10,000 (yes, several have recently sold at or near that price). It wouldn't be wise to put a value on your rifle without a close examination but if it is original, it would probably bring somewhere in the lower mid-range of the above two values.

Joe, Whether it was a fluke or not, the last recorded M1941 Johnson LMG did sell for $62,500. It was a nice gun but wasn't anything extraordinary (no USMC or FSSF provenance, etc.). I admit I was quite surprised by the price that gun brought but in today's Class III market, I guess nothing should surprise me. I suspect that the dealers who claim the previous LMG price was a fluke, don't have one for sale! If they did, they may look at that sale in an entirely different light. In short, genuine transferable M1941 LMGs are so rare on the market today that the price is simply what a buyer is willing to pay and a seller is willing to accept. However, as any appraiser will tell you, the best estimate for what something is worth is what a similar item actually sold for recently. Who knows, in five or ten years the $62,500 gun maybe viewed as a bargain.

Sandy, Welcome to the “club”. I certainly agree about Bob Lamoreaux and Joseph Scott. I consider Bob the most astute student of Johnson weapons in the world. Our book would not have been remotely possible without Bob’s tireless efforts. Likewise, Joe is the best Johnson craftsman/gunsmith that I am aware of. He quickly identified and solved a problem with my M1941 LMG that had thoroughly stumped the “recognized best” Class III gunsmith in the country. There are a number of other knowledgeable and helpful individuals who frequent this site (including the Jim Pullen the webmaster) who can offer invaluable advice and comments. This site is a marvelous asset for those interested in the Johnson weapons and we all owe a great debt of gratitude to Jim for providing it. Bruce Canfield

I saw the ad when the gun was first listed for sale on 3/4/05. It appears to be a very nice transferable M1941 LMG and included the rare backpack mag. carrier. Even so, I was surprised by the $65,000 price tag! It didn't have any sort of special provenance or anything to distinguish it from any other nice Johnson LMG. I was even more surprised to learn that it sold at that price yesterday (only four days after being listed). All I can say is, WOW!

Actually, Johnson Automatics did not mark their slings at all. As stated, the sling that is the subject of this thread is NOT a Johnson sling, it is a M1907 sling. Perhaps the "JF" marking on the sling in question means "Johnson/Fake"! Even if the sling "came off" a Johnson rifle, that means nothing as anyone could have put it on the rifle at any time. Any decent original M1907 military sling is a desirable item today, but the one being auctioned isn't anything special and I'm not even sure it is "GI".

Tony, I would suggest contacting Tony Pucci at Orion 7 Enterprises. I believe he owns (or owned) one of these rifles. They typically sell for "big bucks," so you want to be careful. As far as a price goes, it would be whatever a buyer and seller could agree on.

Jim is correct. The Johnson rifles had a special leather sling with a brass button at one end and a leather thong at the other. It is probable that some of the relatively few rifles acquired by the Marine parachute units were subsequently fitted with issue M1907 slings to replace the original Dutch-contract slings due to wear or damage. Other than the unique slings that were on the rifles when they left the factory, there is no such thing as a special "Johnson rifle sling" and this certainly includes the sling currently being auctioned. Anyone who pays a premium for the sling in question because of the accompanying story is going to be sorely disappointed.

The issuance of M1941 Johnson rifles to US troops during WWII was limited to the USMC parachute units. Even within the parachute outfits, the use of Johnson rifles was not extremely widespread. Since the USMC parachutists were quite small in in number, the vast majority of Marines during WWII never encountered, and most probably never even heard of, the Johnson rifle during the war.

A follow up regarding the combat photos...I was referring to rifles in the hands of the USMC paratroopers. There are a few photos of the rifle being used by Dutch colonial troops in a combat setting and a couple are shown in the book "Johnson's Rifles and Machine Guns." I've seen a few other Dutch combat photos, but images of Marines using Johnson rifles are seemingly non-existent.

If it is a no-prefix serial number, a couple of guys who monitor this board can give you the exact date the rifle was shipped from the factory. In any event, the vast majority of M1941 Johnson rifles were manufactured in 1942. I've been looking for a combat photo of a Johnson rifle for many, many years to no avail. There are a bunch of combat photos of the LMG, but not of the rifle.

If left on for an extended period of time, the rubber recoil pads tend to discolor the wood underneath. If you plan on always leaving it on, then I guess it doesn't matter. On the other hand, you might consider taking it off and treating the stock with some tung oil, boiled linseed oil or lemon oil if needed. You can always slip the pad back on if you're so inclined.

Looks like a nice rifle. I'm curious about the grenade launching recoil pad since Johnson rifles didn't have a grenade launcher!

I want to add to the kudos for Joseph Scott. Several years ago, I acquired a transferable M1941 Johnson Light Machine Gun with a documented USMC provenance. When I received the weapon and took it to the range, it wouldn’t function properly. When it would fire, it would often “run away” and empty the magazine. I sent the gun to the widely-acknowledged “best” Class III gunsmith in the country. The guy kept the gun for several months and tinkered with it some but, frankly, had no idea what the problem was. He eventually returned the gun to me along with a bill for services rendered. Some time later, I corresponded with Joseph Scott about the problem and he made arrangements for a licensed Class III gunsmith in his area to receive the gun so he could look it over. Joseph almost immediately spotted the problem… the gun had a Johnson rifle bolt instead of a LMG bolt! The two bolts are essentially identical except for slightly different machining cuts, thus the sear would not engage properly. When efforts to purchase a spare LMG bolt were unfruitful, Joseph made arrangements for a talented machinist to remachine the cuts in the rifle bolt to duplicate those in the LMG bolt. Thus remachined, the bolt was identical to a Johnson Light Machine Gun bolt. The gun now functions flawlessly and has never misfired or faltered once. Joseph Scott was able to identify the problem and make arrangements to have it fixed at a fair and reasonable price. He is definitely one of the “good guys.”

Although Johnson Automatics, Inc. was in serious financial trouble by 1948, I think it is highly unlikely that any of the 100 former USMC rifles that Johnson marketed via the American Rifleman ad for $250 were still around two years later and "marked down" to $100. The company had lots of JSAR parts on hand and it isn't too much of a stretch to assume that some rifles could have been assembled from the left-over parts on hand. The company would have looked at any feasible way to increase cash flow and assembling some rifles from otherwise unuseable parts would have made a lot of sense. Winchester bought the large quantity of remaining Johnson parts when Johnson Automatics was liquidated in bankruptcy and MMJ,Jr. went to work for WRA. Admittedly, this is strictly speculation but I think it is more likely than to assume that Johnson was unable to sell just 100 former USMC rifles (even if $250 was a lot of money in 1948!). This may be just one other unanswered in the fascinating Johnson saga.

I saw the copy of the 1948 Invoice on your website. Very interesting document. However, I doubt the invoice pertains to one of the 100 rifles that were purchased by Johnson in Feb., 1945 from the USMC Dept. of Supplies in San Franciso and sold via an ad in American Rifleman in 1946. These 100 rifles were sold for $250 each (not $100 as reflected in the invoice) and were marketed in 1946 while the invoice was dated two years later.

Brian, Do you know the serial number or how he supposedly acquired the rifle?