High Prices Bring JSARs Out of Collectors’ Closets

[flyer338 0]

I calculate the net to the seller on the nicer rifle after deducting the buyer's premium and consignment fee was about $12,332. The seller's net on the story rifle was about $14,785.

[matconcrete 0]

Is it known whether the USMC Jsars were modified in a machine shop or by the soldiers with a file and some free time ?

[flyer338 0]

Mr. Johnson or Mr. Canfield may have a more informed opinion, but I think whatever modifications were done, were done in theater.

[eb in oregon 0]

On 12/7/2021 at 4:22 PM, matconcrete said:

Is it known whether the USMC Jsars were modified in a machine shop or by the soldiers with a file and some free time ?

Merely an opinion, but it is unusual for any service to modify weapons even before combat. I'd assume most were done by Marines that didn't like the protective ears of the JSAR's front sight. Marines probably used to years of firing the M1903 rifle. So it would be hack saws and files in my opinion as from the pictures I've seen that appears to be the case. They were going to war, what did they care about "turn-in."

[Bruce Canfield 0]

There were definitely some M1941 Johnson rifles that had the front sight protective ears milled off under the auspices of the First Parachute Regiment, most likely done at the Regimental armory on New Caledonia before the unit was deployed to Bougainville. It is not known if all of the Johnson rifles in the outfit had this modification done. Given the relative ease by which the ears can be removed by anyone today having a grinder or milling machine, there must be some sort of convincing (or strongly suggestive) documentation regarding  the provenance of a particular rifle before a USMC connection can be confirmed.  As far as I can tell, the only thing that the Johnson rifle recently auctioned by Rock Island had regarding possible Marine Corp prior ownership is the modified front sight which, as stated, really means nothing.  There is no known roster of USMC Johnson rifle serial numbers and serial numbers in all three blocks (no prefix, A prefix and B prefix) have been noted in the small number of genuine examples extant.

.  There were only 750 Johnson rifles procured by the Marine Corps in WWII (and only 243 apparently issued). With total production of just under 22,000, the odds of any undocumented Johnson rifle encountered today being a USMC rifle is only about 3%.  That being said, a Johnson rifle with confirmed USMC provenance would certainly be worth a very substantial premium over an undocumented rifle in comparable (or even better) condition today.  T

[flyer338 0]

JSAR 5955 showed up on Gunbroker today. It looks like a high condition Winfield Sporter. The rifle is in Alaska, so the shipping is high. The opening bid of $3499 has already been made. The only defect I see is the recoil pad is cracked.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/918436351

[flyer338 0]

Simpsons Ltd has two JSARs for sale. 

The first is a re-parkerized rifle with a couple of cracks (one looks major) in the butt stock. I cannot read the serial number in the pictures. It is listed as B03XX. It is priced at $6,495.

https://simpsonltd.com/johnson-automatics-m1941-rifle-c44183/

The second is offered at a reduced price. It is listed as 80% original finish with a good stock and bright bore. The serial number is listed as A51XX. It has a bayonet and scabbard as well as a leather sling. It is marked down from $7,495 to $6,995.

https://simpsonltd.com/u-s-1941-johnson-automatic-c33653/

Simpsons will ship to a CNR FFL where legal and, so far, does not collect sales tax.

[ArtR 0]

https://simpsonltd.com/johnson-automatics-m1941-rifle-c44183/

Appears to be B0345

https://simpsonltd.com/u-s-1941-johnson-automatic-c33653/

Appears to be A5172

 

[flyer338 0]

A JSAR barrel showed up on Gunbroker this morning. The opening bid was $300 and has been met. I suspect it will go for more than twice the opening bid.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/919164293

[camstuff 0]

I just looked at it, and my thoughts are that they avoided showing pictures of the any stampings on the barrel, such as the JA,   30-06 and the typical 2 sets of serial numbers, along with a few other markings.  Not saying this is a bad barrel, but it does also look refinished. 

[ArtR 0]

I asked seller questions about photos of other barrel markings (SN's, caliber, etc)

[flyer338 0]

Another barrel lot is being offered on Gunbroker; this is what looks like two NOS barrels. One barrel is in .30-06 and the other is in 7X57.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/918981232

[ArtR 0]

On 12/18/2021 at 8:38 PM, flyer338 said:

A JSAR barrel showed up on Gunbroker this morning. The opening bid was $300 and has been met. I suspect it will go for more than twice the opening bid.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/919164293

Seller has posted a couple more photos with SN's

[camstuff 0]

11 hours ago, flyer338 said:

Another barrel lot is being offered on Gunbroker; this is what looks like two NOS barrels. One barrel is in .30-06 and the other is in 7X57.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/918981232

FYI: If anyone is interested in the GB barrels, and your looking for a correctly marked 7mm barrels, please be aware that there are other replacement barrels out there that have no markings.   Also the 30-06 barrel in the auction  is identical to the 7mm and it’s unusual to see this.  
 

First picture, TOP: Correctly marked Chilean 7mm barrel, MIDDLE: Non marked 7mm barrel with a slightly shorter shaft.  BOTTOM: Correct JA 30-06 barrel.  Notice the differences!

[ArtR 0]

20 hours ago, flyer338 said:

Another barrel lot is being offered on Gunbroker; this is what looks like two NOS barrels. One barrel is in .30-06 and the other is in 7X57.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/918981232

Both look suspiciously like 7mm barrels...buyer beware!

[flyer338 0]

JSARs in the February 2022 Rock Island Auctions catalog.

JSAR 6574 is a Winfield sporter with a cheek piece on the butt stock. In the pictures it appears to be a high condition rifle. However, the description lists it as non-professionally refinished.

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/1039/653/us-johnson-model-1941-semiautomatic-rifle

JSAR 9687 appears to be a rifle in original military condition. It comes with an extra barrel and a leather sling. It is listed as being non-professionaly refinished.

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/1039/2638/johnson-automatics-model-1941-semiautomatic-rifle-with-extra-ba

JSAR B3109 looks like another Winfield sporter. The notes are that the rifle has been non-profesionally refinished.

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/1039/4528/us-johnson-model-1941-semiautomatic-rifle

 

[metrotps 0]

I see that lots #653 and #4528 are listed as "Class: Curio & Relic Long Gun" which are both modified from mil-spec to sporting rifles. Since they are modified I do not believe they qualify as a C&R firearm. "ATF’s classification of surplus military firearms as curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their original military configuration." So I wonder why they are listed by RIA as C&R. Has anyone here seen a C&R license qualify for the transfer of a Winfield or any sporter rework ? 

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what-firearms-are-considered-be-curio-and-relic-firearms

[eb in oregon 0]

The receiver is C&R and that they were modified after manufacture doesn't change that. And as the Winfield's are still over 50 years old that qualifies them as C&R.

[ArtR 0]

C&R holders, and others are directed to this page. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios-relics

There are two significant downloads available there. The one "Download the Firearms Curios and Relics List (1972-2018) 587.34 kb" is of interest here.

On page one, It says, ( the underline in the note was added by me):

Curios or Relics List — January 1972 through April 2018
Dear Collector,
The Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division (FATD) is pleased to provide you with a complete list of
firearms curios or relics classifications from the previous editions of the Firearms Curios or Relics (C&R)
List, ATF P 5300.11, combined with those made by FATD through April 2018. Further, we hope that this
electronic edition of the Firearms Curios or Relics List, ATF P 5300.11, proves useful for providing an
overview of regulations applicable to licensed collectors and ammunition classified as curios or relics. Please
note that ATF is no longer publishing a hard copy of the C&R List.

Table of Contents
Section II — Firearms classified as curios or relics, still subject to the provisions of 18 U.S.C.
Chapter 44, the Gun Control Act of 1968............................................................................................. 1

 

Going to Section II, and finding "Johnson", on page 11,  one finds the following listing:

Johnson, Model 1941 semiautomatic rifles, cal. .30, all serial numbers, with the collective
markings, “CAL. 30-06 SEMI-AUTO, JOHNSON AUTOMATICS, MODEL 1941, MADE
IN PROVIDENCE. R.I., U.S.A., and Cranston Arms Co.” —the latter enclosed in a triangle
on the receiver.

 

While I have not seen otherwise, many collectors believe that 'all serial numbers' does not separate out rifles considered to be Winfield sporters.

I fear that if anyone were to query the BATFE on this matter, it might open a whole new can of worms.

 

 

 

[flyer338 0]

I think this question arises from conflating the definition of a C&R for purposes of importation with the definition for transfer using an 03 FFL. The former requires the rifle to be in original condition and the latter does not.

Unfortunately, the latest ATF guidance on this issue seems to extend the unmodified requirement to all C&R firearms. I do not believe it is correct -- ATF guidance is not law, but I would not want to be the test case.

[camstuff 0]

I don’t know the exact years Winfield was active in making the sporters, but as of now anything before 1971 will qualify as a C&R.  So maybe the question is, when was a firearm modified?  Before a C&R holder needs to question if it meets the requirements.  I agree with Art, about asking the BATF for clarification.  Don’t want to raise any red flags for us all. 

[Orlando 0]

IMO the year of modification has nothing to do with Curio Relic status. "In original configuration is the key, its the complete rifle, not just the receiver. No different than many years back guys used to buy Springfield 1903 rifles very cheap and sporterize them into hunting rifles. They are no longer Curio Relic eligible ,just my 2 cents

Edited December 24, 2021 by Orlando

[metrotps 0]

Please remember that the auction is presented by RIA. They have been in this business for a long time and surely would know the ATF rules on this question. That to me is real conundrum of my question. Is it a mistake that the M1941 Winfield modified rifles are listed as C&R eligible or are they actually considered by the ATF to be so? Could it be that because the Winfield rifles were modified over 50 years ago and that perhaps Winfield Arms had a 07 FFL that these rifles are C&R eligible?

[matconcrete 0]

Sporterized jsar just brought $7375. On gunbroker. Seems pricey but maybe not with “original” looking jsars bringing 10-18k

On the subject of C&R compiance, I assumed modification refers to a change in Barrel size or change in how the receiver operates. Such as a Boys antitank gun being retrofitted with a 50 bmg barrel, making it “modern”.

[ArtR 0]

Again, I bring readers attention to this document again.

On page 1, under Section II, it specifically lists:

"All original military bolt action and semiautomatic rifles mfd. between 1899 and 1946."

Then later, in the same section II on page 11 it lists:

"Johnson, Model 1941 semiautomatic rifles, cal. .30, all serial numbers, with the collective
markings, “CAL. 30-06 SEMI-AUTO, JOHNSON AUTOMATICS, MODEL 1941, MADE
IN PROVIDENCE. R.I., U.S.A., and Cranston Arms Co.” —the latter enclosed in a triangle
on the receiver."

I think it safe to say that the BATFE has  answered the question, as they have specifically listed the "JOHNSON, MODEL 1941, SEMIAUTOMATIC RIFLES, CAL .30, ALL SERIAL NUMBERS, WITH COLLECTIVE MARKINGS..... "  as a separate item from "ALL ORIGINAL MILITARY BOLT ACTION AND SEMIAUTOMATIC RIFLES MFD BETWEEN 1899 AND 1946. "