
Gman
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About Gman
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Rank
Advanced Member
- Birthday 11/14/1946
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Gender
Male
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Location
Las Vegas
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Interests
Collecting U.S. military weapons.
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Ammunition Report I started with 250 rounds of commercial ammo produced by C Squared Munitions Corp (now out of business) and 250 rounds manufactured by Precision Ammunition. Both are listed as 5.7 mm for the Johnson Spitfire. Standard disclaimer - I don’t know how old this ammo is or how it was stored. Use at your own risk. Your results may vary. For this trial, I fired both of my newly acquired Spitfires. One is an Inland conversion of unknown manufacture that has a 5 groove 18 1/4” barrel while the other is a MMJ Arms with a six groove 18” barrel. I did a cast of both chambers and found the Inland to be a little larger than the MMJ. E.g. the head diameter on the Inland was .001 wider than the MMJ while the shoulder on the Inland was a whopping .005 wider than the MMJ. The throat of the chambers both measured the same. The C Squared box says it used new military brass. I pulled several bullets (or in some cases they fell out) and can verify that the brass was bright and shiny on the inside - not bad for brass produced in the forties and fifties. About 10% of the 250 rounds was split in the neck while one round was split all of the way to the middle of the case. I did insert rounds into the Inland rifle by hand and fired a few of the neck split cases. When I retrieved the brass, the splits had extended into the body of the case - and when cleaning the rifle I found that a lot of gas had exited through the magazine opening. The brass had headstamps from three different arsenals but was mostly of Lake City WWII manufacture. The primers were primarily brass colored but about 30 were silver indicating different lots. The ammo was loaded with 40 gr bullets with a fairly sharp ogive and small lead point. I believe them to be Speer Varmint Soft Point .224 bullet although a .223 is specified. This ammo contained 14.7 grains of a very small ball powder, type unknown. Wall thickness measured .016 at the neck. The loaded dimensions of this ammo was below the dimensions shown in what I believe to be the “Cartridges of the World” publication. I had a hard time determining what size these bullets were because of the way they were loaded. It appeared the bullets were inserted into the brass and then the entire neck was crimped around it. In the worst case, I found a bullet that was squeezed down to a .217 base with a .225 middle. The butt on this bullet was no longer flat but rounded instead. This problem was inconsistent with a lot of the bullets measuring at .220. There was practically no neck tension on this cartridge. I was able to pull enough bullets that were not injured to satisfy myself that this is indeed a .224 bullet. The Precision Ammunition was all loaded in new Remington-Peters brass of unknown manufacture date. The bullets appear to be the Sierra 40 grain Hornet Varminter soft point which were called out as a Sierra PSP on the Precision Ammunition box. When I pulled several of the bullets, they measured .223 consistently and the cases were bright and shiny. The primers are silver in color of an unknown brand. This ammo contained 13.5 grains of a very small ball powder, type unknown. The powder appeared to be the same as contained in the C Squared ammo. The cases were all R-P stamped with a wall thickness measuring .016 at the neck. The loaded dimensions of this ammo was very close to the dimensions shown in the “Cartridges of the World” publication. During my initial inspection, I found only about 2% to have a split in the neck. This would later prove to be significantly incorrect. Being a softer thinner brass, these cases are good at hiding a split. I reinspected this ammo after problems encountered at the range and found again almost 10% had a split in the neck. These splits are very difficult to see or feel. Even with a magnifying glass I missed two because after my examination I would try to pull the bullets out by hand and only after pulling those two and then rocking the bullet back and forth in the neck did the split show up. Some of the splits did not originate at the top of the neck but rather in the middle of the neck where the base of the bullet rested. I was able to pull by hand over 20 bullets from each brand of commercial ammunition. No bueno in my opinion. Results using a Garmin Xero C1 chrony: AVG FPS SD MAX delta C Squared ammo Inland=2763.6 MMJ =2818.8 Inland=47.4 MMJ =29.9 Inland=120.3 MMJ =46.4 Precision Ammo Inland=2513.3 MMJ =2503.3 Inland=92.7 MMJ =40.9 Inland=206.9 MMJ =89.5 Hand loaded new Win brass-CCI 400 primer w 12.5 gr IMR 4227 MMJ =2626.2 MMJ = 22.7 MMH =41.8 Problems encountered: After firing 15 rounds of the C Squared ammo and 7 rounds of the Precision ammo, the Inland 5.7 malfunctioned with the firing pin barely tapping the primer. I suspect an overpressure occurred because the first round I ejected after the click was an R-P with the bullet pushed back well into the neck which was now showing a split. I believe the previous round did the same thing. When I disassembled the rifle, no obvious defects could be seen but the rifle is now at my gunsmith’s shop. The MMJ functioned flawlessly. Also, none of my hand loads split during construction or after firing. Conclusion: I will not be firing any more of the C Squared ammo. I might ditch the bullets and resize the brass but I have enough 30 cal that I can resize and use that I feel is more trustworthy. I cannot recommend the use of C squared ammo. The Precision ammo is at least the right caliber and seems to shoot better but I still wonder if there are any hidden splits that I might have missed. In the meantime, I’ll be developing my own loads with my RCBS dies and Sierra 40 gr bullets. I've included a pdf version in case this copy/paste gets jumbled. MMJ 5.7 Spitfire.pdf
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That's a beauty. Looks like a keeper. Congratulations.
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Eb, thanks for checking. I'll agree with you that the parts look original to Johnson Arms. The stock looks like an original Johnson checkered sporter stock but sadly it was cracked more than the dealer described (actually both sides) and the forearm was repaired with a downward bend twisting to the right. The receiver was not installed properly when I got it as the end was not inserted into the recoil plate but rather jammed in front of it. The dealer said he didn't notice it. Oh well, I found a very nice Fajen stock that fits very snugly for only $85. Between this rifle and the Inland conversion I bought, I've got 500 rounds of ammo (250 Square D and 250 Precision) along with around 500 mostly unfired cases. Plus a set of RCBS loading dies. I'll post more on the ammo once I've gone out to the range and ran some through my chrony. Also, I've seen your posts on reloading the 5.7 both on this forum and Gunboards as I recall. Thank you for the information.
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Eb, thanks for your response. I believe you are right, the bolt is highly polished on top. I hesitated to call this an actual Johnson Arms built rifle because the SN is on the side of the receiver and not on top as all of the others I've seen. Maybe Ed will see this and shed some light.
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Gman started following Well, I finally got one - or two, too.
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I've been following the Spitfire for a while and decided go ahead and jump in. I just missed a real Johnson Arms on GB a couple of months ago so I bought a modified Inland and wouldn't you know it, a Johnson receiver popped up. I thought it might be an original Johnson Arms build but the serial number didn't match. Then I thought it might be a PMC build but according to the M1 carbines, Inc. site the PMC serial numbers started with an A while this one ends with an A. Does anyone know who might have built this one? It does have a six groove barrel that is 18" long. The bluing on the receiver has turned kind of a nice looking purple shade. The bolt appears to have been chromed. The bottom of the bolt is maybe parkerized. You can see the chrome through the number 207 that has been scratched through the coating. Any thoughts?
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B4441 Miltech rebuild now on GB. Looks like it has been sitting unused in a collection for the past 30 years. Interested to see the final price on this one! https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1087342436
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The one with the ammo looked a little interesting so I did some digging. Based on the serial number, the receiver was made and sold by Springfield Armory in the '90s. The barrel maker was not listed. I emailed the seller who is a dealer and asked who made the barrel, who modified the barrel and who assembled the rifle. His response was, "I do not know who made the rifle". In my opinion, advertising this rifle as a Johnson Spitfire rifle is akin to advertising a Henry 30-30 win as a Winchester 30-30 rifle. After reading all of his disclaimers, I will not be bidding on this one.
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Just spotted a barrel on flea-bay for $695. Looks OK but it has some strange machine marks in front of the locking collar and some pitting on one of the locking lugs. https://www.ebay.com/itm/335250241295?itmmeta=01HPHG8TWE9EAKG3G33X0G55BF&hash=item4e0e78b70f:g:GvMAAOSwWSNlxb9V&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwIHkjg%2BKuKOT9TAcrl04ATZ%2FIciWLzS8yX2RQDevl6cbhdmbAoMItCXv6lMOcsXbDOp3ywE1FPEJAWIwdexs641RMsvW2mEP60qvUp9jMHSzXbzO13i6Okti45i85k3bbf8mJKV4gCpegevQXBHc%2BQjjDWo1aXVSFMSNn9KLSh%2BET1ydlqgptotJ9o4VKg7TeFZeTUWEbcCRwarQZYh63E%2BEqMCFGHK8R86QdOGiLECEsVNbHghb6%2BUtaqEjhciW%2BQ%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR66uo7C0Yw
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Yes, I'm thinking that Mr. Scott's barrel is going to set a record. Good luck to you.
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Gman started following What to do to clean wood.
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When I got one of mine from an online purchase, it arrived slightly rusty as it had been stored in a damp basement. The stock was very dark, sticky and smelled bad so I refinished it. As I recall, I used mineral spirits to strip it and let it sit for a few days in the sun to get the smell out. I did not sand it as I wanted to preserve the original sanding/handling marks. My research led me to choose between linseed oil and tung oil as referenced in the links below. I chose tung oil as it is more waterproof and IMHO gives more protection from skin oils and sweat. Before the tung oil was applied, I also applied a Minwax stain as it penetrates and seals in addition to staining. Tung oil, when dried, is not slippery. As it stands now, rub you finger on the finish and it will squeak. https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/4/14/which-oil-is-best-for-m1-garand-stock-refinishing/#:~:text=Wipe your new or old Garand stock with,two. Then wipe down with a clean rag. http://www.garandgear.com/m1-garand-new-oil-finish
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Wow, this one went for $5,527.00 (plus tax and shipping) and without any pictures showing the condition of the insides. Doesn't look like the seller offered an inspection period either.
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Gman started following B Series on GB - bad barrel
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Saw this on GB today. Rifle looks like it was shoved barrel first into the mud and left there. If someone has an extra barrel, this might be the one for you. Low starting bid with 14 bids already. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/904273160
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Thanks for your comments, gentlemen. I hope it goes to a good home.
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Gman started following Selling my B series
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I put my really special B series up on Gunbroker last night after much hesitation. Kinda sorta didn't want to sell it but age is catching up with me and I need to start clearing out the safe so the wife doesn't have to. I was hoping that it wouldn't sell, but someone has already bid on it. I posted a couple of pics in the gallery years ago but there are dozens on the GB site. Here is the link if you'd like to take a look: https://www.gunbroker.com/item/895160573 For the record, I will be keeping my A series that I rescued from someone's damp basement years ago. After cleaning off the rust and refinishing the the old gal, she became my best shooter. Go figure. Semper Fi
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I've got a repro bayonet. PM sent.