Interesting find.

[Markgrant69 0]

I recently inherited a beautiful (at least to me) sporter model 30 carbine only to find out it wasn’t what I thought it was. What the heck is MMJ 5.7?     Full disclosure it’s been re-barreled in 30 carbine. I’ve fully tore down, cleaned, inspected  and test fired it and was going to put it up on Texas gun trader but don’t have any sense of what the value may or may not be. Anyhow I started researching this beautiful oddity and that research leads me here. This seems the Mecca of Johnson enthusiasts so I figured I’d offer it up here first. While I love a 30 carbine my dog has a mass that’s going to require surgery and these are the kind of things that I can part with to help her out.  having issues attaching photos so I’ll figure out how to shrink them and provide in a second post if anyone wants to see more. 

[matconcrete 0]

Looks nice, too bad barrel was changed, not alot of sales to get a solid idea of value as they are rare, I’ll let some of the real pros chime in.

Phil M

[eb in oregon 0]

As it has been re-barreled it's value is greatly reduced in my opinion. There were only about 200 original "Spitfires" made and about 50 modified by Johnson Arms for customers that sent their rifle in. If it were still an original Johnson "Spitfire" it would be far more valuable than as it now is. I wouldn't put a value on it as I always "low ball." However an original NIB IAI 5.7mmj carbine sold the other month for a ridiculous price. However .30 carbines not so much, unless completely original. Those have escalated exponentially. It does look good and someone will buy it, but like I said I'll not put a value on it.

[Markgrant69 0]

This is what I figured. Thank you for your genuine opinions. Another question or three. It’s said only 200 or so are actually produced but the serial number on this is 1146, does this fit the production model or is it possible I just have a complete fake? Now I wish I could find out who changed the barrel and try to recover the original.  The more I learn the more interesting this little rifle gets. I’ve found brass and obviously components but not actual ammo for the spitfire, is it recently available from small qualified remanufactures or strictly make it yourself and are the reloading dies still available? Would it even be prudent to return this to original or just keep it shootable as is.  

By the way eb. I lived in central Oregon, Bend and Redmond back in the mid 80’s. That’s God’s county right there. Texas is home but my heart will always reside in Oregon. 

[Blueheeler 0]

Hopefully Ed Johnson will be along to help out.

To me,  It would be something of a quandary as it falls between two stools.  It's value to Johnson collectors I think would generally be diminished by having the wrong barrel. To the non- Johnson person, it would look more like a commercial sporter carbine with some GI parts  and be valued accordingly.

[eb in oregon 0]

The chances of retrieving the original barrel would be a snow balls chances in a hot place. Finding an original Johnson barrel slightly better, finding a new made barrel slightly better than that. Replacing the barrel isn't that hard, finding one with the 1/16 twist (the original twist rate) is the hardest part.

Serial numbers don't always begin at "the beginning." From the serial numbers I've seen Johnson Arms probably probably started somewhere around 600 for the new manufactured rifles. And they aren't necessarily consecutive. I don't believe the production records for serial numbers of the "Spitfire" carbines exists anymore. Granted part of this is conjecture, but it makes sense.

There are a small number of businesses that custom load or supply brass, it ain't cheap. Those who have and shoot their 5.7MMJ carbines usually make their own ammunition.

CH4D makes dies for the 5.7MMJ, they ain't cheap either. And if you get the reforming dies also you will need an extended shell holder. And anneal the brass before reforming otherwise you'll suffer split cases upon forming and only get a single use out of too many cases.

[matconcrete 0]

Eb,

are you calling Texas the “hotplace”?

[eb in oregon 0]

2 hours ago, matconcrete said:

Eb,

are you calling Texas the “hotplace”?

Not initially, but having spent some time in Texas while in the Army and several vacations there since a snowball won't live long there. However Texas has nothing over southern Iraq. That place was hot.

However we digress from the original subject.

If I were given such a rifle, considering it is something special and rare, I'd search as long as it took to find a 5.7 barrel in a 1/16 twist and put it back to where it should be. I'd sell something else first. Like my blood. I do know however why that rifle was re-barreled, the ammunition is almost "unobtainium" unless a dedicated re-loader and 5.7 fan. In my mind the ammunition factor was the greatest hinderment to the "Spitfire" being successful at the time.

[Ed Johnson 0]

OK. Here goes:

1) I purchased receivers in 1965-66 from Plainfield Machine (NJ) which were stamped in 3 digits which varied (109,  208,  etc.) and another outfit stamped in 4 digits (1004, etc.). I was not a full-blown manufacturer. Everything, including finishing and assembly, was produced by subcontractors or by GI surplus. 

2) So....receivers were new, trigger groups were GI surplus, stocks & handguards (new sporter) were by Wysowski (CT) and (new folding) by Bianchi, new barrels by Wilson Arms (CT), new sights by Williams (MI).

3) Bluing and assembly - by Johnson Automatics Associates (former employees of Dad's . in RI).

4) The carbine in the photo is basically one of my sporter models....with a carbine barrel. We can only guess why it was converted, as described above.

5) Ammunition never got off the ground the way we wanted. I started by hand-loading and testing (with a sound reducer) in the basement of our house. Farmed out the work to a small Texas company with poor quality results. I had to hand-load again. Was working towards the end on automated equipment but product quality was lacking.

6) By that time, we had recognized that this was a great little carbine, but sales demand was not high so it did not justify setting up an expensive full-blown manufacturing plant. The only folks who could make the product profitably were actual .30 M1 Carbine producers. Some of them tried. All failed to hit high sales figures. And there was scant ammo available.

7) As to the value of the carbine above, you would simply treat it as a sporter-ized .30 M1 Carbine....maybe $400 to $500 value....as opposed to a legit military surplus M1 carbine which will sell circa $1200 or more these days.

Happy trails....  ej

[Markgrant69 0]

What an amazing history Mr. Johnson. I truly appreciate you taking the time to reply in such detail. And thank you all for the input, I kinda figured this was a special little rifle and now that I know it I can’t possibly let it go. That said I’ll give a little background on how I acquired it. I’m one of the lucky guys who’s wife loves firearms as much as I do. As a matter of fact, she bought me an FN Scar 20s in .308 for Christmas a couple years ago.
 

She was recently working at a pawnshop in Ft. Worth and a man brought in several firearms to sell as my wife says it, “his grandfather had left him the lot and the little snowflake didn’t want them in his house”.  This particular rifle didn’t have a magazine and the bolt didn’t lock back (operator error) so she couldn’t purchase it. He asked what he was supposed to do with it. She remotely unlocked her truck and said you can leave it in my truck if you want. Well. He did and that’s how I inherited it. 
 

 I went in on the day the hold was released and purchased all of the other firearms to add to our collection. A few rather old and unique rifles. 
 

Again, thank you all for your time and input. 
Mark G. 

[Ed Johnson 0]

Mark, thank you for the comments. We also suggest you obtain the book "Johnson's Rifles and Machine Guns" by Bruce Canfield. There is more specific history on the "Spitfire" on pages 234 through 243. ej

[Tofan 0]

MarkGrant69,

I sent you a private message about this rifle, let me know if you are still trying to get rid of it. Thanks.

Matt