Unable to remove operating handle from bolt

[j.rivet 0]

Hello. I am trying to disassemble Johnson rifle. I am at the stage of removing the operating handle from the bolt. It is very difficult. I am easily able to pull the pin out. Moves about 1/8 inch but cannot slide the handle forward to remove. The pin is slightly bent. I do not want to apply to much force and risk damaging anything. Any tricks or tips to help coax it out? Have lightly oiled. Thank you.

[camstuff 0]

There was another recent post with the same issue. You might have to search for it.
 

  I’m thinking since your pin is bent that it’s likely lost the connection to the other internal pin which locks the charging handle to the bolt.   If you can unscrew the two hole cap inside your charging handle, you will be able to access the internal pin and pull it to release the handle. (Don’t loose the spring inside)  However that two hole cap can be difficult to unscrew.  

[j.rivet 0]

Yeah I had stumbled over that post. It’s odd because the handle doesn’t have the two holes. Should I try straightening the pin out?

[M48TANKER 0]

Camstuff has advised you correctly. Try cleaning the threaded disc that should be around the pin. Perhaps the holes are just obscured by years of grime?

I'm not sure if trying to work the pin around to get it engaged it the "lifter" again is possible.

Try very hard to do no damage. Those cocking knobs are very scarce!

[j.rivet 0]

There is no threaded disc around the pin. The pin itself does spin. Should it be able to do that? I am able to depress it outwards from the ‘backside’ of the operator handle but still difficult to slide out. Any tips or tricks?

 

[M48TANKER 0]

Well....alright then! Here is a photo of something I see on the place/disc which must unscrew.  Perhaps along the line someone in the past made a repair? Here is what's on the backside too.

[camstuff 0]

Joseph Scott mentioned something about another rifle with a similar bolt handle a couple of years ago, I don’t remember the model anymore, but anyway, I was able to find it pretty easily hoping I could use it just for the internal parts.  Well it didn’t work.  I’m wondering if you have this other bolt handle.  I’ll dig mine out tomorrow and see if the two hole cap is a solid piece like yours.  Yours is definitely an oddity of some sorts. 

[j.rivet 0]

No those are not punch marks. I added a bit of oil to free things up a around the pin and your just seeing some flashes from it in the picture.

[M48TANKER 0]

You could always take a small drill bit and make the two opposing holes in the disc so you can unscrew them. You will need some sort of tool to turn the disc. Start pouring penetrating oil in the cocking knob to facilitate the removal.

Edited February 27, 2022 by M48TANKER
add image

[j.rivet 0]

Okay thank you camstuff that would be great! I’m a little Leary at this point of drilling holes in anything. If it was made to thread out there would be a way to do that. And yes I should be using penetrating oil now.

[M48TANKER 0]

The correct part should have the two opposing holes in it. Here is a copy of camstuff's picture of the internals of the cocking knob. The threads are shown as below if you double click the image. I also found a good pic of the NPC stamp on an original barrel.

[camstuff 0]

Copy and pasted part of Joseph’s thoughts on the Remington model 8 bolt handle that is similar to the JSAR. 

“The Remington handle lets the bolt rotate too much, so much that only 1/2 of lugs engaged. It also hammered the metal next to the front roller and stopped rotation. I got the barrel to work with another bolt but not with the one I tried to repair. In my opinion, a Remington operating handle should NEVER be used on a Johnson.”

Pictures below, the taller handle is the JSAR.  

 

[j.rivet 0]

Worked it a bit more and still unable to get apart. So it looks like my only option is to drill two holes in it like m48 tanker had suggested. How deep are the holes on these operating handles? Are they just 1/8-1/4 inch Deep or do they physically go all the way through the metal of the disc? I just don’t want to damage any components under the disc. The only thing I can think of is an operating handle was installed that didn’t have the holes drilled from factory. Most likely why the pin itself is bent from the folks before me trying to remove it. 

[camstuff 0]

I don’t recall if it’s drilled all the way through. 

I just read you earlier post, and you said the pin spins, and I thought it was the disc.  So I would drill two holes maybe 1/8” to 3/16” and try the special pliers Tanker showed or make your own spanner type wrench.  I’ll post a picture of my crude spanner wrench tomorrow. 

[j.rivet 0]

Let me know the depth of the holes when you have a look. I’ll be bringing it in to a gunsmith to have that completed. I’m not having a buddy hold it while I hit it with ol Milwaukee. Should Deffinetely be done in a drill press. 

[M48TANKER 0]

I "Awakened" around 2:00 am with visions of cocking knobs spinning in my brain. So I decided to make use of our "Gallery" feature to create some of my artwork. If you haven't checked out our Gallery section lately, you might want to do so.

I'm very puzzled by "j.rivet's" cocking knob and it's lack of any apparent holes for removal. It had to be assembled some way and the pictures below show the most common construction. This is not to say that, over the years, someone poured lead or something into the holes, but I still think that the holes are there somewhere under whatever is covering them. I hope we get this thing figured out so I can get some sleep!

[eb in oregon 0]

The holes in the disc are less than 1/8th inch deep, more like 3/32nd at the most. Part way thru the disc, not all the way thru the disc. The tool to remove the disc was/is a spanner wrench, basically a rod of the same diameter as the disc with a hole in it for the take down plunger and two small hardened dowels of the same diameter as the holes and spaced the same. Good luck.

Edit: Your cap could be pressed in, which would be a bad thing, but that would explain the lack of disassembly tool holes and be another example of idiots working on a firearm. These are several spanner's I've made for different fastener's on firearms. My battery died and I was unable to take another shot. However the one on the left does fit the retaining cap on the charging handle, but I never take something apart unless it needs to come apart for service or repair.

 

[M48TANKER 0]

Eb,

Nice wrenches. I need to make some more. Those pictures I posted of "pliers" are usually used on internal and external snap rings. I use them on motorcycles and mechanical equipment mostly. The type of spanner wrenches you posted are the best tools for firearms work.

[eb in oregon 0]

5 hours ago, M48TANKER said:

Eb,

Nice wrenches. I need to make some more. Those pictures I posted of "pliers" are usually used on internal and external snap rings. I use them on motorcycles and mechanical equipment mostly. The type of spanner wrenches you posted are the best tools for firearms work.

Thanks, I've made a lot of tools to spare me grief, or because I was too cheap to buy one as I could make it. I've a drawer full of pliers, to include internal and external snap ring pliers. I don't use them for anything else but a guy's gotta do what he's gotta do. Fortunately I have machine tools and can make a bunch of things. One of the reasons I made those spanner's is a long time ago I needed to remove a nut from the cross recoil lug bolt of an SKS. I took an old pair of snap ring pliers (fixed jaw, with the tips just fitting the two drilled holes) and those tips snapped right off. The spanner wrench I made (the second from the left) removed that nut easily.

[ArtR 0]

Eric

As you seem to have both the equipment, and ability, maybe what we might need is a 'tool lending library'. Much like what many auto parts places have. Pay a deposit, and have a tool shipped to you, and upon return, receive a refund, maybe less a bit to cover shipping and possible materials/time to make future tools/spares. And possibly include complete instructions on use of tool.

It would sure take a lot of frustration out of some jobs, and possibly cause less damage to some really pricey parts.

Just a thought.

ArtR

[eb in oregon 0]

Art, I'm open to a PM anytime, and I don't mind lending tools. The one inviolable rule is return it as received or buy a new one. However these tools you see take about an hour or more to make, plus materials. You won't easily find them anywhere else in my estimation. However before I retired machine tool time was $55.00 per hour. Rebated for some. 

[camstuff 0]

3 hours ago, eb in oregon said:

Art, I'm open to a PM anytime, and I don't mind lending tools. The one inviolable rule is return it as received or buy a new one. However these tools you see take about an hour or more to make, plus materials. You won't easily find them anywhere else in my estimation. However before I retired machine tool time was $55.00 per hour. Rebated for some. 

Very nice tools you made EB.  I’m really embarrassed now to post a picture of my crude tool made out of wood and sharpened nails to make my spanner wrench.  If you decide to do a production on your custom tool for the JSAR. I would be interested.  

[eb in oregon 0]

23 hours ago, camstuff said:

Very nice tools you made EB.  I’m really embarrassed now to post a picture of my crude tool made out of wood and sharpened nails to make my spanner wrench.  If you decide to do a production on your custom tool for the JSAR. I would be interested.  

You know, sometimes a one time, one use tool doesn't have to be pretty or durable. One time, one time only. Made a few of those too.

It would take a terrible itch to make me scratch up a run of tools. One, all by itself takes about an hour with lathe and mill work and all else involved. Set up time isn't short. But with more that does cut cost. It would still be an expensive tool. Just because I had to work again and it's just not fun anymore.

[camstuff 0]

21 hours ago, eb in oregon said:

You know, sometimes a one time, one use tool doesn't have to be pretty or durable. One time, one time only. Made a few of those too.

It would take a terrible itch to make me scratch up a run of tools. One, all by itself takes about an hour with lathe and mill work and all else involved. Set up time isn't short. But with more that does cut cost. It would still be an expensive tool. Just because I had to work again and it's just not fun anymore.

Yep, I can understand that. When’s it not fun, it’s time to stop.  

[M48TANKER 0]

When I first got into building 1919A4 semi autos, there existed no way to "buck" the rivets to install the sideplates. Guys had just been inserting a bar of steel and backing the rivets with that. Sort of putting a steel bar in a vice and sliding the receiver over it, laying the receiver on that bar and bang away. Nobody had any tool to "set" the rivets either. Riveting tools existed mainly for the aircraft industry but none specific to the rivet heads needed on the 1919A4s.

I gave it a lot of thought and came up with a set of opposing steel wedges which could be pulled together and tightened in the receiver by an attached threaded rod. It worked so well that I began making these "Tanker's Bucking Bar Wedges" and selling them on the 1919A4 Message Board. My equipment was limited to an old Brown and Sharp 2A milling machine, all manually operated...no computer, no DRO, just my hand measuring tools. It took me most of a day to make a set of bucking bars and I only charged for the material used in making them. I was not making a profit but I was making a lot of friends and having a great time doing it.

Then I took a "muffler gun"  and reshaped on of the "bits" into a punch with a concave divot in the end to form a domed head on a rivet. I would sell the rivet tool and the set of wedges as a set or you could buy one or the other.

This method of riveting the side plates on the 1919A4 became "THE WAY" of building these receivers. I guess I sort of revived a lost art only practiced by the factories who made 1919's. In fact I'm not sure the bucking bar they used was opposed wedges?

WOOHOO! I became "famous" as the go-to-guy for riveting tools. Dolf Goldberg even included my "Tanker's Bucking Bar Wedges" in one of his books. He called and asked my permission first and I agreed only if he didn't use my real name.

Soon, one of the other members of the 1919A4 Message Board, since he was a professional machinist and had better equipment, was able to sort of mass produce my bucking bar wedges a lot cheaper than I was able to. I was just in this for the fun of it and did not want to compete with someone else who could out-produce me. I had not applied for a patent and he just used my design to re-create my wedges and that put me out of the game.

Morale of the story: Don't ever expect to make a profit on a "limited run" type of item.