0067 coming in RI

[matconcrete 0]

I’m scratching my nearly bald head quite a bit over this one. The lines are blank in the log book for 0067 which I assumed that meant it was either an lmg as 0068 is or was this reciever assembled later from parts? The big question is whats up with the matching numbers, the blue finish and the whopping estimate. I’m missing something .

 

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/85/419/early-serial-number-0067-us-johnson-1941-rifle

[eb in oregon 0]

I'm thinking high quality but not educated forgery.

[WHIG 0]

Since the rifle is refinished and the stock has had some work done on it also, would that increase the chances that someone has fabricated or re-stamped the bolt and firing pin to match the serial number? Pretty rifle and I'm sure Rock Island will get a premium for it but it certainly is not original.

[ArtR 0]

Members are directed to this post from 2008 which has considerable expert discussion surrounding this SN. You can draw what conclusions you may  from it.

ArtR

[camstuff 0]

Great conversations from 2008. All very interesting observations form experienced players in the JSAR world.  Although I’m not interested in 0067, but this novice collector has learned something new today, I think I know my conclusion after reading it. I’m going to have to read the post again tomorrow and see if It changes.  Thanks for finding this Art, you’ve always been great at finding the older topics to share. 

[Rarecat 0]

Love reading the 2008 posting.  Only believe what can be proved....

[WHIG 0]

This is quite an education regarding the validity of a nice Johnson rifle. Unfortunately, the old thread ended abruptly without further discussion of further evaluation of this rifle by experienced collectors. It sure would be nice to know more and keep the discussion going. It doesn't seem like any definitive conclusions were reached. The wise and experienced Dr. Alpert, not able to add to today's discussion, was certain of his evaluation.

Krag Jorgensen rifles, made from 1894-1903 at a total number of over 480,000, only had some individual parts stamped with their receiver serial numbers up to around Krag number 11,000, so, it would be conceivable, unless records prove otherwise, that some of the very early Johnson Model 1941 rifles had some important parts, like the bolt, stamped with the receiver serial number. But the records, according to you experienced collectors, seem to not support this theory for this rifle number 0067.

Very interesting. Thanks for the education here!

[eb in oregon 0]

"JSAR Aficionados,

Those who have examined rifle #0067 from mere enthusiast, to long and well respected expert, all agree that this is an important firearm."

It may be, but I'm convinced it has been altered from the original condition it came off the production line. Thus not worth the asking price. But that is merely an opinion as the prices for JSAR's has gone ballistic these last few years. I've been fooled before by very good forgeries or alterations so I take a pessimist's view of everything these days.

[matconcrete 0]

Very informative discussion, just speculating when I try to put myself in the shoes of those working on a project with a product and a leader that they believe in, would some of these first 100 or so guns be available for those involved to “purchase or procure” and with that knowledge during production, If I were among them I would want my hands involved and I might take the time to pick through the bins and assemble “my” gun with matching parts. Maybe even going so far as to decide to blue mine.

 I realize this speculation adds up to zero, but it might be something to consider before judging it a fake.
 After finding  some matching parts on 0068 and knowing a fair amount of its history, one has to wonder. 
 Phil

 

[ArtR 0]

Again, while speculation will abound, please keep in mind the very informative comments by Bruce Canfield, Walt Liss, and Edward R Johnson.

Buy the rifle, not the story.

[eb in oregon 0]

51 minutes ago, matconcrete said:

Very informative discussion, just speculating when I try to put myself in the shoes of those working on a project with a product and a leader that they believe in, would some of these first 100 or so guns be available for those involved to “purchase or procure” and with that knowledge during production, If I were among them I would want my hands involved and I might take the time to pick through the bins and assemble “my” gun with matching parts. Maybe even going so far as to decide to blue mine.

 I realize this speculation adds up to zero, but it might be something to consider before judging it a fake.
 After finding  some matching parts on 0068 and knowing a fair amount of its history, one has to wonder. 
 Phil

 

This is also speculation, but having worked in many businesses producing products for sale I never worked for one that allowed employees to purchase something as small as a bolt when there were orders that had to be fulfilled on a strict timeline. That would be a poor business practice and as Melvin Johnson was running himself ragged to procure orders I find it difficult to believe he would have allowed even the first ten rifles produced as an employee purchase. Then too I know of no employer that would approve of any employee to take the time to "cherry pick" parts for a specific product. That may have happened, but any employee doing so was placing his "bread and butter" in dire jeopardy. I can see his maybe giving a few out as "seed" to grease the skids, but as Bruce mentioned those were standard grade rifles with maybe some selected wood. Not the same thing as this rifle in my opinion, which is speculation on my part also.

[mc41 0]

 41 Johnson enthusiasts, I purchased the Johnson 0067 rifle in Indiana in June of 2008 and sold it I recall in December 2014 to a Las Vegas gun shop. Shortly after my purchase I met with Dr. Alpert at which time he was genuinely interested in seeing the rifle.  Upon my arrival Dr. Alpert brought out a WW2 era  Army blanket. We then stepped outside onto the patio and laid the blanket out at which time he photographed 0067. Sometime later Joseph Scott borrowing one of Dr. Alpert's photos placed the image on his (Joseph's) business card.

   With the rifle resting on the blanket Dr. Alpert and I partially disassembled it analyzing its condition. Naturally the presumed matching serial numbers were of most interest. Our conclusion and made in good light was that the bolt and the other serial numbered parts viewed had been polished then restamped. I recall the numerals used in the restamping displayed a slightly altered appearance to that of the standard 41Johnson. The font size was slightly smaller along with other minor discrepancies. At that time and in addition to the 0067 serial numbers problem was the rifles incorrect barrel. It was not a 41Johnson barrel. I recall it displaying a 41 stamp but it did not exhibit the 41Johnson "Sword". The following November I brought 0067 to the Tulsa show and knowing Joseph Scott met with him and asked for his opinion. His thoughts as mine were that the 0067 stamped serial number located on the receiver looked authentic the other numbers and barrel not so. Concerning the barrel besides it not displaying the "Sword" Joseph found dispute with its rifling. The barrel had a six groove rifling rather than the standard four groove. Smith Corona Arms employed a six groove rifling. The little capitol P located left of the 0067 serial number was present when I purchased the 41Johnson.

 For all those interested in 0067 this is what I can share.

 

[WHIG 0]

Thank you mc41 for this information. First hand info along with your memory of Dr. Alpert's and Joseph Scott's gives a better understanding of this dilemma. Much appreciated!

[ArtR 0]

I can only hope that any potential buyers do a full and complete research before buying.  A trip to this forum (and the past and current discussion) should enlighten anyone willing to shell out several thousands of dollars, much less  what is hoped for in this auction.

ArtR

[WHIG 0]

Rock Island now has the estimate for this rifle at $14,000 - 25,000. They'll probably get close to that too plus their 24% premium!

[mc41 0]

5 hours ago, mc41 said:

 41 Johnson enthusiasts, I purchased the Johnson 0067 rifle in Indiana in June of 2008 and sold it I recall in December 2014 to a Las Vegas gun shop. Shortly after my purchase I met with Dr. Alpert at which time he was genuinely interested in seeing the rifle.  Upon my arrival Dr. Alpert brought out a WW2 era  Army blanket. We then stepped outside onto the patio and laid the blanket out at which time he photographed 0067. Sometime later Joseph Scott borrowing one of Dr. Alpert's photos placed the image on his (Joseph's) business card.

   With the rifle resting on the blanket Dr. Alpert and I partially disassembled it analyzing its condition. Naturally the presumed matching serial numbers were of most interest. Our conclusion and made in good light was that the bolt and the other serial numbered parts viewed had been polished then restamped. I recall the numerals used in the restamping displayed a slightly altered appearance to that of the standard 41Johnson. The font size was slightly smaller along with other minor discrepancies. At that time and in addition to the 0067 serial numbers problem was the rifles incorrect barrel. It was not a 41Johnson barrel. I recall it displaying a 41 stamp but it did not exhibit the 41Johnson "Sword". The following November I brought 0067 to the Tulsa show and knowing Joseph Scott met with him and asked for his opinion. His thoughts as mine were that the 0067 stamped serial number located on the receiver looked authentic the other numbers and barrel not so. Concerning the barrel besides it not displaying the "Sword" Joseph found dispute with its rifling. The barrel had a six groove rifling rather than the standard four groove. Smith Corona Arms employed a six groove rifling. The little capitol P located left of the 0067 serial number was present when I purchased the 41Johnson.

 For all those interested in 0067 this is what I can share.

 

 I been thinking back and again reviewing my 0067 41Johnson post.  I failed to include that at the time of my ownership the rifles wood foregrip was a replacement. It displayed a noticeably dissimilar grain appearance and finish to that of the shoulder stock. I recall the butt end of the fore stock void of the standard 41Johnson numerals and or letters. 

 If by chance any remaining 0067 memories take foot, I will assuredly add them to my post.

 

[matconcrete 0]

mc41

Your input is very helpful in understanding this jsar. We will dispense with the on the floor custom assembly speculation, however several workers were cought assembling their own lmg, thats my only basis for speculation.

 Thanks, Phil

[eb in oregon 0]

1 hour ago, matconcrete said:

mc41

Your input is very helpful in understanding this jsar. We will dispense with the on the floor custom assembly speculation, however several workers were cought assembling their own lmg, thats my only basis for speculation.

 Thanks, Phil

And they probably got fired and then drafted.

[matconcrete 0]

Wonder if they were issued a JSAR or more then likely a potato peeler.

[ArtR 0]

For members information:

Premier Firearms Auction #85

May 13, 2022 to May 15, 2022 | Starting at 9:00 AM Each Day

Auction includes this "often talked about SN 0067" ( in this post and another previously mentioned from 2008) and two other SN's

This auction item should be interesting. Who will buy the story and who will buy the gun? We will know in a couple days!

[Jimbocious 0]

Interestingly, RIA seems to be very careful in its description, not making any claims regarding originality, backstory, or being a presentation rifle, etc.  The listing states, for example: "professionally restored blue finish with a few small spots of very light pitting and defined markings in the metal. Wood is also very fine as lightly sanded and re-oiled with a few light scratches and light handling marks."

So, if RIA is right about metal and wood being refinished, and MC is right in his recollection about a mismatched forend, and Joseph Scott is correct about the barrel, the main question seems obvious. no?

 

[ArtR 0]

 

42 minutes ago, Jimbocious said:

Interestingly, RIA seems to be very careful in its description, not making any claims regarding originality, backstory, or being a presentation rifle, etc. 

 

Compare that to the 'video description' that they did for SN5487 , just back in the fall of 2021. They pieced together so many tid-bits of information and twisted some of them to try and make a plausible story. But as we know, some people are often swayed by the story, and forget to research the actual item.

[Jimbocious 0]

Wow, Art, that video was over the top!

[Ed Johnson 0]

Not wishing to be repetitive, especially involving RIA. Buy the Gun. Do NOT buy the "story." And the matching numbers all the same? Nope.....

[ArtR 0]

 SN 0067 closed at $11163

SN A9728 closed at $10575

Note: 12 hrs later,...I am still curious as to why the 7mm Chile rifle did not sell...still no indication that it did.