Marine Model Johnson Rifle

[Clyde 0]

Note: To view high resolution photos of the Johnson rifle, sight details, and all drawings by PVT. Treadway and letters to Melven Johnson please visit the following link: Marine Model Johnson Rifle Photos

To view the photos in extreme high resolution click the "All Sizes" button located at the top of the photos then select "Original" from the list of options.

In the past ten to fifteen years there has been a greater (much greater) interest in the Johnson 1941 semi-automatic rifle. This increased interest has led to skyrocketing prices. In the 1960’s, a Johnson could be obtained in the $100 to $120 range. Today they are more like $3,400 to $4,000 with some bidding going over $7,000. Included in this renewed interest in the Johnson rifle, are the various myths and stories which abound and which are promulgated by the uninformed and the hucksters who embellish or denigrate the Johnson that they may want to sell or purchase. One of the fanciful stories that are thrown around the gun show circuit is that the M-1941 Johnson rifle on the table is a “marine model” and saw service in the Southwest Pacific. This probably has more to do with the lack of concrete, primary source information which was unavailable to the general public over the years rather any sinister intent.

The 1941 semi-automatic rifle and later the M-1941 and 1944 light machine guns were the brain child of gun enthusiast and...

To read the entire story clck the following link: TalkingWithClyde.Blogspot.com

[keith smart 0]

Note: To view high resolution photos of the Johnson rifle, sight details, and all drawings by PVT. Treadway and letters to Melven Johnson please visit the following link: Marine Model Johnson Rifle Photos

In the past ten to fifteen years there has been a greater (much greater) interest in the Johnson 1941 semi-automatic rifle. This increased interest has led to skyrocketing prices. In the 1960’s, a Johnson could be obtained in the $100 to $120 range. Today they are more like $3,400 to $4,000 with some bidding going over $7,000. Included in this renewed interest in the Johnson rifle, are the various myths and stories which abound and which are promulgated by the uninformed and the hucksters who embellish or denigrate the Johnson that they may want to sell or purchase. One of the fanciful stories that are thrown around the gun show circuit is that the M-1941 Johnson rifle on the table is a “marine model” and saw service in the Southwest Pacific. This probably has more to do with the lack of concrete, primary source information which was unavailable to the general public over the years rather any sinister intent.

To read the entire story click the following link:

Talking With Clyde

Very interesting post. Thanks for sharing.

[metrotps 0]

Note: To view high resolution photos of the Johnson rifle, sight details, and all drawings by PVT. Treadway and letters to Melven Johnson please visit the following link: Marine Model Johnson Rifle Photos

In the past ten to fifteen years there has been a greater (much greater) interest in the Johnson 1941 semi-automatic rifle. This increased interest has led to skyrocketing prices. In the 1960’s, a Johnson could be obtained in the $100 to $120 range. Today they are more like $3,400 to $4,000 with some bidding going over $7,000. Included in this renewed interest in the Johnson rifle, are the various myths and stories which abound and which are promulgated by the uninformed and the hucksters who embellish or denigrate the Johnson that they may want to sell or purchase. One of the fanciful stories that are thrown around the gun show circuit is that the M-1941 Johnson rifle on the table is a “marine model” and saw service in the Southwest Pacific. This probably has more to do with the lack of concrete, primary source information which was unavailable to the general public over the years rather any sinister intent.

The 1941 semi-automatic rifle and later the M-1941 and 1944 light machine guns were the brain child of gun enthusiast and...

To read the entire story clck the following link: TalkingWithClyde.Blogspot.com

All I can say is WoW and thank you for this posting this.

[Joseph Scott 0]

I saw that rifle some years ago at Tulsa and the rear/front sights and US stampings were freshly done at that time. Somewhere I have a few pictures of it on old digital discs.

[Dave Southard 0]

I also note a "P" stamped on the barrel in one of the pictures.

Is that a proof stamp?

I have a B-series rifle that has a P stamped on the barrel (just below the collar), and also on the underside of the receiver (left side as you are looking at it upside down with the stock removed).

[walt 0]

Guys,

I seriously doubt that JA ever stamped any of their rifles with any firing proof marks or other military markings other than what the factory stamped. Viewing the production films nowhere does it show any (P or US) stampings being added to either the barrel or the receiver. An interesting note tho was why was this reciever and radiator sleeve both marked with the US stamping. The production films are pretty explict in showing starting from raw materials, production, proofing, test firing, and shipping of Johnson rifles and machine guns. If these were legit markings from JA they would or should be the same size and shape and design of the other letters and digits. Are these markings legit from JA? I say no I these markings were added by somebody else other than JA.

walt

[Clyde 0]

David:

1) The P stamped on the barrel is evidently a proof mark. The final stage of firearms manufacture is to fire a proof load in the rifle to test its strength. These are in the range of 55,000 lbs per sq. inch. The barrel on my rifle is not the one that it had when it left the factory and may have come from another rifle or been a replacement barrel. In Europe, this proof testing is sanctioned by the government and various stamps are used to make sure that the firearm has been proofed.

2) My rifle does not have a proof mark on the receiver.

3) The US mark on my rifle remains a mystery and may always remain so. It was certainly not put on at the factory as I mentioned in my article.

4) If the Marine Corps had placed an identifying mark on the rifle it certainly would have been USMC.

5) If Johnson Automatics would have purchased this rifle after the war, it would certainly have been reconditioned with a new barrel, stock, etc. as he had plenty of parts on hand. In his advertisement he states that the rifles were reconditioned. Thus Johnson Automatics certainly did not mark the gun with the US.

6) If a firearms owner had wanted to show possession of the rifle I expect he would have stamped his name or initials on some spot on the rifle. Who ever did this certainly had a mission in mind.

7) The stamp was placed on the rifle well down the line, after it left the factory. The barrel in the rifle is not the one that was on it when it left the factory as I found the original manufacturing records and took down all of the numbers on the bolt, barrel, magazine, etc. when it left the factory.

8) So where did it come from? Who knows who did it or when. I mention it in the article because it is on the rifle and that is all. Sometime dreaming about the history of a firearm is part of the fun of collecting. I have never seen another mark such as this on any Johnson rifle so it was a very localized form of identification.

9) The US marks were on the rifle when it came into my possession in 1961. I did not add them to enhance the value of the firearm. I would not have done this as even back then I knew that working over a historical firearm to your liking is a good way to ruin the monetary value, if not historical value of the firearm. To put false stamps and identification of firearms is fraud.

10) When I went through the records which were compiled by Johnson Automatics, all three legers were at my disposal. These included the non-prefix numbers, the A and the B. I have been told the only one left at the non prefix ledger. The others have been lost. It is unfortunate that I didn’t have then photo copied for posterity. So soon we get old…so late we get smart!

11) As luck would have it, the serial number of my rifle appears in Bruce Canfield’s excellent book on the Johnson Firearms. It appears on page 249 on the second edition of the book entitled: Johnson’s Rifle and Machineguns published by Andrew Mowbray Publishers in 2006. There are serial numbers for 29 rifles that are known to have been shipped to the marines and mine is one of them. How many survived the war or are sitting in someone’s closet, undiscovered, will never be known.

If I can be of further assistance in your search for information on your Johnson rifles or mine, do feel free to contact me.

Clyde

Note: To view High Resolution Photos of the Johnson rifle, sight details, and all drawings by PVT. Treadway and letters to Melven Johnson please visit the following link: Marine Model Johnson Rifle Photos

To view the photos in Extreme High Resolution click the "All Sizes" button located at the top of the photos then select "Original" from the list of Available Sizes.

The 1941 semi-automatic rifle and later the M-1941 and 1944 light machine guns were the brain child of gun enthusiast and...

To read the entire story clck the following link: TalkingWithClyde.Blogspot.com

[Bob Lamoreaux 0]

I want to mention that Clyde unselfishly provided data and documents when I was doing research for what ultimately became "THE book". It is really a shame that he was not able to "rescue" the A and B prefix production logs!

The drawings are interesting for two or three reasons: 1. They show the "tent peg" bayonet being used on the rifle, presumably in combat; 2. They show the LMG with bipod -- one of the complaints received by Johnson Automatics was the delay in receiving bipods -- and at least one former Marine parachutist stated that the bipods -- when received -- were frequently discarded; 3. Here is the BIGGIE: Note the depiction of what appears to be a belt-mounted magazine carrier, apparently for two magazines! Bet one of those would bring some big bucks! I am familiar with the backpack mag carrier, but have never seen -- nor seen reference to -- the belt mounted carrier. Wonder if this was Parachute Battalion (or Rgt.) manufactured or an item that was provided by JA.

Very nice post, Clyde!

BTW, the Webmaster -- Hi, Jim! -- has dug up some very rare photos of Johnsons -- particularly the l.m.g. I wonder if Jim's collection includes the belt-mounted carrier?

[Bob Lamoreaux 0]

I forgot that I wanted to speculate on the "US" markings. I wonder if these were stamped on the rifles received by JA from the USMC? One of the sources upon which I found credible in researching the book, a former USMC parachute batt. sgt., stated that upon the disbanding of the parachute regiment, the Johnson small arms (rifles and l.m.g.s) were turned over to the Dutch Marines being trained at, if my memory is correct, Camp Elliott, CA. The Dutch Marines were outfitted with US clothing and equipment and created protests when stationed in the NEI (Indonesia) after the war, with accusations that the US was "backing" a colonial power in quashing an independence movement.

I wonder if the Johnson weapons were stamped with the US prior to distribution to the Dutch Marines, possibly to identify the country of origin. I don't know if the Dutch forces in the NEI, following WWII, were still using a hodge-podge of weaponry -- British, Italian (captured in North Africa by the British), Dutch, and US -- or not. The l.m.g.s that I've seen do not bear the US mark, and probably all of these came from the Dutch. The mystery will remain, but it is valid speculation that the US marking may have been applied to those USMC weapons turned over to the Dutch Marines perhaps for some USMC administrative reason or a FEA (Foreign Economic Assistance program) mandate.

The possibility of an FEA mandate might be worth following up by someone who is willing and able to spend hours at the National Archives in College Park, or possibly at one of the other branches of NARA.

[webmaster 0]

BTW, the Webmaster -- Hi, Jim! -- has dug up some very rare photos of Johnsons -- particularly the l.m.g. I wonder if Jim's collection includes the belt-mounted carrier?

I can't remember as I have so much stuff! Let me dig out some of the boxes of photos and the like and take a look.

[Clyde 0]

Check out my blog and read my new two part article "THE MYSTIQUE OF THE DOUBLE RIFLE." You can learn about double rifles in general and about my the 9.3 x 74R double rifle.

http://talkingwithclyde.blogspot.com/

Clyde