5.7 Johnson revival in Germany

[Adriaan de Jong 0]

The latest issue of the "Deutsche Waffen Journal"(German Gun Journal) has an interesting Article in it.

Of all things, well known(overhere) gunsmith Hans-Peter Sigg built a Rifle in 5.7 Johnson.

The action(very heavy for this small cartridge, as it easily takes the 308 winchester) is made by himself, Barrel isn't mentioned in the Article, but will most probably be a Lothar Walther. Stock and Trigger are both from Anschutz. Barrel lenght 600 mm(about 24 inch).

The Rifle weighs about 4.5 kg, which is app. 10 Pounds. There are no complaints about recoil.....

According to the Article, Hans-Peter chose the little Johnson cartridge as an alternative to the 22 Hornet. Brass was from Remington, Forming was done by running the brass through a full lenght sizing die from RCBS. The accuracy at the following fireforming was allready very good.

Several loads were tried, smallest group was 13 mm at 100 meters, which is a bit better than 1/2 MOA. Load was 50 grs Hornady SP, Winchester WSR Primer, Vihtavuori N110. Muzzle velocity was 812 m/s(about 2664 fps)

Best results were with 50 grs Bullets, the 55 grs were notably worse. The author feels the accuracy is better than the Hornet, but not quite as good as the .222 Remington.

For more information about the Rifles maker Hans-Peter Sigg: www.sportgewehr.de. Price of the gun is quoted on request.....

If you want the Magazine: www.dwj.de. The Issue is 11/09.

Maybe we will hear more from this one, the Author is suggesting there might be an M-1 Carbine version coming.......

Adriaan

[Ed Johnson 0]

The latest issue of the "Deutsche Waffen Journal"(German Gun Journal) has an interesting Article in it.

Of all things, well known(overhere) gunsmith Hans-Peter Sigg built a Rifle in 5.7 Johnson.

The action(very heavy for this small cartridge, as it easily takes the 308 winchester) is made by himself, Barrel isn't mentioned in the Article, but will most probably be a Lothar Walther. Stock and Trigger are both from Anschutz. Barrel lenght 600 mm(about 24 inch).

The Rifle weighs about 4.5 kg, which is app. 10 Pounds. There are no complaints about recoil.....

According to the Article, Hans-Peter chose the little Johnson cartridge as an alternative to the 22 Hornet. Brass was from Remington, Forming was done by running the brass through a full lenght sizing die from RCBS. The accuracy at the following fireforming was allready very good.

Several loads were tried, smallest group was 13 mm at 100 meters, which is a bit better than 1/2 MOA. Load was 50 grs Hornady SP, Winchester WSR Primer, Vihtavuori N110. Muzzle velocity was 812 m/s(about 2664 fps)

Best results were with 50 grs Bullets, the 55 grs were notably worse. The author feels the accuracy is better than the Hornet, but not quite as good as the .222 Remington.

For more information about the Rifles maker Hans-Peter Sigg: www.sportgewehr.de. Price of the gun is quoted on request.....

If you want the Magazine: www.dwj.de. The Issue is 11/09.

Maybe we will hear more from this one, the Author is suggesting there might be an M-1 Carbine version coming.......

Adriaan

Thank you for the report. We only used a 40 grain bullet during the '60's with 12.5 grains of 4227 powder and #6.5 primer with a muzzle velocity of about 2850 FPS from an 18" carbine barrel. When we used a Sako bolt action rifle as a control rifle, with 24" barrel we went over 3000 FPS. Accuracy was very good. Ed J

[Adriaan de Jong 0]

Ed,

according to the Article, they used 13,4 grs IMR4227 with the 40 grs Sierra HP for an MV of 2894 fps.

That load gave about 1 inch at 100 meters.

The author mentions they stayed within the 3200 bar/46413 psi pressure limit. The action/rifle combination would take 4000 bar plus easily. I do not how much pressure the brass can handle.

Personally I am a bit disappointed with the results. If you look at the fact that we are talking about a custom made rifle with high quality components, I would have expected smaller groups than the 1/2 MOA.

But fairness requires to say that not really many loads were tried and that the author has to stay within the legal pressure limits.

I wonder what you could get out of the rifle/cartridge given a bit time to play.

Adriaan

ps

Ed, could you tell me which rate of twist was used in the spitfire?

pps

Just asked the gunsmith: the barrel is from Sauer and Son, Rate of twist is 14 inch

[Ed Johnson 0]

Ed,

according to the Article, they used 13,4 grs IMR4227 with the 40 grs Sierra HP for an MV of 2894 fps.

That load gave about 1 inch at 100 meters.

The author mentions they stayed within the 3200 bar/46413 psi pressure limit. The action/rifle combination would take 4000 bar plus easily. I do not how much pressure the brass can handle.

Personally I am a bit disappointed with the results. If you look at the fact that we are talking about a custom made rifle with high quality components, I would have expected smaller groups than the 1/2 MOA.

But fairness requires to say that not really many loads were tried and that the author has to stay within the legal pressure limits.

I wonder what you could get out of the rifle/cartridge given a bit time to play.

Adriaan

ps

Ed, could you tell me which rate of twist was used in the spitfire?

pps

Just asked the gunsmith: the barrel is from Sauer and Son, Rate of twist is 14 inch

Adriaan,

We used 1 in 16" twist to give the bullet just enough spin. Upon hitting a fluid target (man or animal), the bullet would then "tumble, creating addition pressure on the fluid target. But we could still pentrate 1/8 to 1/4 inch steel plate within 20 feet of the muzzle. Ed J

[Adriaan de Jong 0]

Ed,

I just had contact with Hans-Peter Sigg. They decided to go with a 14 inch twist because they wanted to use somewhat heavier bullets and the OAL with the single shot rifle wasn't a problem.

He has the barrel there for building a M1 Carbine in 5,7 Johnson, that barrel has the same 16 inch twist you and your father used. The 40 grs bullet will be used with it, also to stay within the maximum OAL for the M1's magazine.

I will keep an eye on developments and keep you informed.

Adriaan

[Ed Johnson 0]

Ed,

I just had contact with Hans-Peter Sigg. They decided to go with a 14 inch twist because they wanted to use somewhat heavier bullets and the OAL with the single shot rifle wasn't a problem.

He has the barrel there for building a M1 Carbine in 5,7 Johnson, that barrel has the same 16 inch twist you and your father used. The 40 grs bullet will be used with it, also to stay within the maximum OAL for the M1's magazine.

I will keep an eye on developments and keep you informed.

Adriaan

OK, that would be fine. If they have any questions, let me know. In the interim, they should avoid high pressures above 36,000 lbs. with the M1 Carbine actions, build up feed ramp to allow for the 5.7 (.2235) versus .30 bullet ogive (size/shape) and consider slightly smaller gas port. Refer to our 5.7 website at

http://www.imageseek.com/5.7mm/

My E-mail is ERJRice@aol.com

Ed Johnson, son of MM Johnson, Jr.

[webmaster 0]

I still have all the 5.7 Johnson test data here if anyone wants copies. Ed, you know the stuff from Jack (last name escapes me)!

[Ed Johnson 0]

I still have all the 5.7 Johnson test data here if anyone wants copies. Ed, you know the stuff from Jack (last name escapes me)!

Jim, right, that info you have is based on notes taken by John ("Jack") Fitzgerald, who was Dad's right-hand man on the 5.7mm project. He specialized in ammunition and was the man responsible for setting me up with the initial hand-loading operation in New Haven, CT

Jack worked with Dad at the Dardick Corporation and, later, worked at Colt in Hartford, CT Ed J

[Adriaan de Jong 0]

Ed/Jim,

thanks for your Information, I forwarded your Offer to help to Hans-Peter Sigg so he can contact you directly if he needs more Information.

Adriaan

[eb in oregon 0]

Amazing the things you find just digging.