Did Something A Little Different

[Barry in IN 0]

I'm by no means a serious competitor, but I will shoot an IPSC-style 3-gun match now and then. For those who don't know, these are similar to IPSC or IDPA pistol matches, except you use shotguns and rifles also.

Almost everyone uses an AR-15 for their rifle, but I like shooting them with somewhat out of the ordinary rifles just to see how they handle through a variety of situations. You might have to shoot steel targets at 300 yards in one stage, then shoot 10 targets at arm's length in the next. I can see how a rifle shoots shooting targets at the range, but I find out other things when they have us shooting under tables, or sitting in a rocking mockup of a "boat".

I will often use a Garand, M1 Carbine, or some other WWII rifle, and it gives me an good idea how they compare. Since I bought my M1941 Johnson about a year and a half ago, I've wanted to see how it would do. I finally broke down and took it this past Sunday. Last weekend being the anniversary of the start of the Guadalcanal campaign, it seemed like a good time to give the Johnson a go.

It wasn't bad. I didn't place well, but never do when I'm experimenting like this.

The first stage we shot was a rifle-only stage. You had to shoot at targets under a table that were obscured by "no-shoot" barrels. You had to keep your feet within a box, and that, combined with the barrels, made it extremely difficult to see the targets because you couldn't move enough to get a good angle. If you saw any of the target at all, it was a narrow slice.

This called for a short, fast-handling carbine and a nimble shooter. I had the largest rifle there, and am half-crippled.

The Johnson handled pretty well, and I was able to get it pointed where I had to even when I had to shoot from the "wrong" shoulder. It was an eight-target stage calling for one hit each, so I didn't have to reload. I did surprisingly well here, as I'll get to later.

A 30-06 is a tad loud when the muzzle is stuck under a table and fired.

The next stage called for shotgun, then rifle, then pistol. The rifle-applicable part was a mix of fast and sloppy and slow and steady, intended to mess you up. You entered a maze of walls, shooting eight close targets as you came upon them. Bangbangbangbang type of thing. Then you had to come to a screeching halt and take two careful shots. This "shifting gears" gets people in trouble if they can't manage it. Those final two targets weren't that far (55 yards), but were half-size, and you had to thread the needle between a cluster of no-shoots.

Again, the rifle did fine. The short .223 carbines usually have the advantage in these tight spots, but the targets were spread out enough that the rifle was out of recoil and I was ready to shoot by the time I saw the next one. I made the two tight shots fine. From the looks of the shot-up no-shoot targets, some had trouble there.

Then we moved over to the Highpower range for some more distance. They have been setting up a 300 yard stage here, but this time they had it at 200 yards. Of course, they used smaller targets than before. Instead of IPSC-type targets, they had four steel "flash" targets. Instead of being knocked down, they have an orange panel that swings up to "flash" that the shooter got the hit. Two were eight inch diameter and two were four inch diameter.

The problem here was the shooting position. It was a box marked by PVC pipe on the ground that was too small to go prone inside. There was a barricade in front of it so that if you shot from sitting, you had to bend over to shoot through an opening in the bottom. Or you could kneel or stand and brace against the side of the barricade. You ran a few yards to this position, took your empty rifle from the half-barrel storage rack, loaded it, got in position and whacked each target four times.

I should have done well here. The rifle was well-suited to it, and I used to shoot Highpower regularly, which is what this more or less was. I took my time, slung up, and settled into a good solid position instead of just blasting away.

But I didn't do well at all. I had a bad zero (too high, I know now) and had a terrible time seeing the smaller targets (black targets against dark green grass). Sadly, even though four shots were required, I got to test my reloading skills here.

The final stage was another one using all three guns. Pistol, then shotgun, then rifle. The twist on the rifle stage here was the shooting location. They have this big plywood box you get inside. The top and one end is covered with carpet. You pull the carpet aside and crawl in, knock a section of 2x4 out of the other end to shoot through, load your empty rifle in the darkness, and shoot six half-size targets across the range bay.

Oh yeah, the floor is moving.

The floor of this box is suspended from chains in each corner so it's free to sway a couple of inches in every direction. Not enough movement to be unsafe, but enough to make careful shooting rather challenging.

The Johnson did fine here. I got in prone, zipped ten rounds into it, snapped it into position and shot my targets. I would have scored OK here, but I really blew it on the shotgun portion by dinging two no-shoots (there is zero choke in this shotgun- a Rem Model 11- so if they put a no-shoot close to a designated target, I'm toast) and penalties just kill you.

I got the results today, and I was a miserable 30th out of 34. I usually place in the middle of these things, but my struggles on the long stage and shotgun penalties throughout the match hurt.

The Johnson was fine. No malfunctions, breakages, or any other problem. I thought the small rear sight aperture would give me fits at up close distance but it wasn't all that bad. Magazine loading went well, but a couple of times I grabbed a stripper clip and found it had only had four rounds in it. I used a big pouch that allowed me to lay a loaded clip flat in the bottom then stack a few clips on it vertically. Apparently that method allowed them to squirm around too much when I moved around.

Believe it or not, in that close-quartered rifle stage where we shot under the table, I was 8th overall (I think a lot of people got "lost" and left a target untouched). You just never can tell.

Anyway, I thought you guys might be interested in how it went.

I had fun and will use it again.

Oh- As always at the range, the Johnson drew a crowd. And as always, some people are especially willing to educate me on them, telling me "news" like they lost out to the Garand because they cost so much more to make, they didn't like that it needed "special clips", and I even learned Mr Johnson's first name was "Roy"!?!?!

[Ed Johnson 0]

I'm by no means a serious competitor, but I will shoot an IPSC-style 3-gun match now and then. For those who don't know, these are similar to IPSC or IDPA pistol matches, except you use shotguns and rifles also.

Almost everyone uses an AR-15 for their rifle, but I like shooting them with somewhat out of the ordinary rifles just to see how they handle through a variety of situations. You might have to shoot steel targets at 300 yards in one stage, then shoot 10 targets at arm's length in the next. I can see how a rifle shoots shooting targets at the range, but I find out other things when they have us shooting under tables, or sitting in a rocking mockup of a "boat".

I will often use a Garand, M1 Carbine, or some other WWII rifle, and it gives me an good idea how they compare. Since I bought my M1941 Johnson about a year and a half ago, I've wanted to see how it would do. I finally broke down and took it this past Sunday. Last weekend being the anniversary of the start of the Guadalcanal campaign, it seemed like a good time to give the Johnson a go.

It wasn't bad. I didn't place well, but never do when I'm experimenting like this.

The first stage we shot was a rifle-only stage. You had to shoot at targets under a table that were obscured by "no-shoot" barrels. You had to keep your feet within a box, and that, combined with the barrels, made it extremely difficult to see the targets because you couldn't move enough to get a good angle. If you saw any of the target at all, it was a narrow slice.

This called for a short, fast-handling carbine and a nimble shooter. I had the largest rifle there, and am half-crippled.

The Johnson handled pretty well, and I was able to get it pointed where I had to even when I had to shoot from the "wrong" shoulder. It was an eight-target stage calling for one hit each, so I didn't have to reload. I did surprisingly well here, as I'll get to later.

A 30-06 is a tad loud when the muzzle is stuck under a table and fired.

The next stage called for shotgun, then rifle, then pistol. The rifle-applicable part was a mix of fast and sloppy and slow and steady, intended to mess you up. You entered a maze of walls, shooting eight close targets as you came upon them. Bangbangbangbang type of thing. Then you had to come to a screeching halt and take two careful shots. This "shifting gears" gets people in trouble if they can't manage it. Those final two targets weren't that far (55 yards), but were half-size, and you had to thread the needle between a cluster of no-shoots.

Again, the rifle did fine. The short .223 carbines usually have the advantage in these tight spots, but the targets were spread out enough that the rifle was out of recoil and I was ready to shoot by the time I saw the next one. I made the two tight shots fine. From the looks of the shot-up no-shoot targets, some had trouble there.

Then we moved over to the Highpower range for some more distance. They have been setting up a 300 yard stage here, but this time they had it at 200 yards. Of course, they used smaller targets than before. Instead of IPSC-type targets, they had four steel "flash" targets. Instead of being knocked down, they have an orange panel that swings up to "flash" that the shooter got the hit. Two were eight inch diameter and two were four inch diameter.

The problem here was the shooting position. It was a box marked by PVC pipe on the ground that was too small to go prone inside. There was a barricade in front of it so that if you shot from sitting, you had to bend over to shoot through an opening in the bottom. Or you could kneel or stand and brace against the side of the barricade. You ran a few yards to this position, took your empty rifle from the half-barrel storage rack, loaded it, got in position and whacked each target four times.

I should have done well here. The rifle was well-suited to it, and I used to shoot Highpower regularly, which is what this more or less was. I took my time, slung up, and settled into a good solid position instead of just blasting away.

But I didn't do well at all. I had a bad zero (too high, I know now) and had a terrible time seeing the smaller targets (black targets against dark green grass). Sadly, even though four shots were required, I got to test my reloading skills here.

The final stage was another one using all three guns. Pistol, then shotgun, then rifle. The twist on the rifle stage here was the shooting location. They have this big plywood box you get inside. The top and one end is covered with carpet. You pull the carpet aside and crawl in, knock a section of 2x4 out of the other end to shoot through, load your empty rifle in the darkness, and shoot six half-size targets across the range bay.

Oh yeah, the floor is moving.

The floor of this box is suspended from chains in each corner so it's free to sway a couple of inches in every direction. Not enough movement to be unsafe, but enough to make careful shooting rather challenging.

The Johnson did fine here. I got in prone, zipped ten rounds into it, snapped it into position and shot my targets. I would have scored OK here, but I really blew it on the shotgun portion by dinging two no-shoots (there is zero choke in this shotgun- a Rem Model 11- so if they put a no-shoot close to a designated target, I'm toast) and penalties just kill you.

I got the results today, and I was a miserable 30th out of 34. I usually place in the middle of these things, but my struggles on the long stage and shotgun penalties throughout the match hurt.

The Johnson was fine. No malfunctions, breakages, or any other problem. I thought the small rear sight aperture would give me fits at up close distance but it wasn't all that bad. Magazine loading went well, but a couple of times I grabbed a stripper clip and found it had only had four rounds in it. I used a big pouch that allowed me to lay a loaded clip flat in the bottom then stack a few clips on it vertically. Apparently that method allowed them to squirm around too much when I moved around.

Believe it or not, in that close-quartered rifle stage where we shot under the table, I was 8th overall (I think a lot of people got "lost" and left a target untouched). You just never can tell.

Anyway, I thought you guys might be interested in how it went.

I had fun and will use it again.

Oh- As always at the range, the Johnson drew a crowd. And as always, some people are especially willing to educate me on them, telling me "news" like they lost out to the Garand because they cost so much more to make, they didn't like that it needed "special clips", and I even learned Mr Johnson's first name was "Roy"!?!?!

JSAR did NOT cost more, it DIDN'T need special clips and my Dad's first name was "Melvin." But, I'm sure you already knew all that beforehand. Thank you for a very nice, honest report. Ed J

[Barry in IN 0]

At least the guy who changed your father's name knew he designed it. About a year ago at the range, another "expert" looking at mine informed his buddy that the Marine Corps designed it themselves because they were jealous of the army having their own semiauto. I corrected that pretty quick.

My "favorite" was the guy almost two years ago who made an example of himself without even knowing it. He was at the range the first day I shot it, and stood there silently looking at it for a long time. Finally, he asked what it was. I told him, and then he immediately informed me: "They had a lot of trouble with those." I asked what trouble that might be, but he got silent again. That's too bad, because what I really wanted to know was how he couldn't identify it one second, but the next could tell me aaaalllll about it.

I shouldn't have mocked the people at the match Sunday in my above post because overall, they were better than usual. Much better, in fact. These rifles aren't exactly their specific area of interest, so I was actually surprised by the number of people who knew what it was, were interested in it, wanted to know all about it, and wanted to be squadded with me to see it being shot.

But there is always a couple...

[ryche_me 0]

Hey Thanks for the report. I don't think i have heard of a JSAR being used in a competition as such. I bet you impressed alot of people who didn't say any thing. Those hard core AR guys some might have been shamed. Score one for our guys!!!!! I love to take my exotic stuff to the range. My research is usually up to snuff, so i can talk to the know it alls with solid knowledge on my side. I recently had a conversation with an AR guy when i showed up with a newly bought AR180. He was telling me all about how the army tested them and the AR15 had done so much better. The targets showed the difference. He got mad and left. I am not a fan of the AR15, but i could not pass on the AR180. Its a very neat oddity. And it shoots well. I am glad i bought it. Keep the Johnnygun rolling. Ryche

[Barry in IN 0]

Yeah, I think everyone got a kick out of it, even the ones who didn't know what it was. Those that did were pretty interested. Just the caliber alone made a big impression by the foliage being tossed around on the backstop.

On the 200 yard stage where we had to hit the steel targets, when I hit the second small one everybody laughed. I didn't know why until I saw it wasn't there. The 30-06 didn't crater the AR500 steel, but it did slam the target stand down!

I can't help but want to experiment with odd guns at 3-gun matches. I like using these matches to see how various rifles handle in situations I don't usually get to shoot them in. I have a couple of gee-whiz AR-15s, but I know how they work for this type of thing. It's the others I'm curious about. The past few 3-gun matches I've shot, I used the Johnson, a Garand (a few times), a Steyr Scout (probably the only bolt action seen at one around here), and M-1 Carbine. Every one of them has at least kept up, and while an AR-15 would have made things easier, I didn't feel at any huge disadvantage with them.

I've not been last yet!

The shotgun I used this time was my cut-down Remington M11, which is not exactly common there either, although I have seen a couple around at these matches. I think I had the only guns with wood on them.

If I still had my AR-180, I'd try it too. Interesting rifle, and I wish I still had it. Not the finest finished gun ever made and the trigger could have been better, but it shot well and handled even better. I was always impressed that when snapped to the shoulder, the sights were aligned and on target. I still have some AR15 mags modified to fit one, in case I get another.

[ryche_me 0]

Hey Mrs Ryche has a Remington mod 11 she got back a few years ago. The odd thing was the Cutts compensator on the front. When we brought it home i thought someone was just being snazzy when they put it there. I was wrong , after a little research i found out that they used the mod 11's for bomber gunner training. They put the comp. there for a much tighter pattern. These guys would then go offroad in the back of a truck and have to shoot clay pigeons launched from the back of the moving vehicle. The practice was for sighting a moving target from a moving vehicle.( I have enough trouble hitting when i'm standing still.) The gun is in good shape and all the military markings are correct and intact. She enjoys shooting it with the lightest loads i can find.( i don't want to stress the gun.) Hey you dont have any parts for the AR180 do you? I need a bolt catch, mine is broken. Thanks Ryche

[TomW 0]

Hey Mrs Ryche has a Remington mod 11 she got back a few years ago. The odd thing was the Cutts compensator on the front. When we brought it home i thought someone was just being snazzy when they put it there. I was wrong , after a little research i found out that they used the mod 11's for bomber gunner training. They put the comp. there for a much tighter pattern. These guys would then go offroad in the back of a truck and have to shoot clay pigeons launched from the back of the moving vehicle. The practice was for sighting a moving target from a moving vehicle.( I have enough trouble hitting when i'm standing still.) The gun is in good shape and all the military markings are correct and intact. She enjoys shooting it with the lightest loads i can find.( i don't want to stress the gun.) Hey you dont have any parts for the AR180 do you? I need a bolt catch, mine is broken. Thanks Ryche

Ryche- You might check out

armalite.com

They list a bolt catch #18011000 @ $6.45. It is under Armalite Rifle Components-Then under AR-180-B components-Then under Lower Receiver Group.

When they re-issued the AR-180B they pretty much duplicated the old AR-18 & AR-180. You could ask them if there is a problem with it fitting. I bought their AR-180 Field Repair Kit which contains springs, firing pin, rubber gasket & other small parts which may need to be replaced. $60 They assured me that parts would fit my old AR-180.

TomW

[Barry in IN 0]

No, I never had any spare parts for my AR-180.

The M11 was indeed used for training stateside in WWII, and apparently some slipped off to the Pacific. They are covered briefly in Bruce Canfield's "Infantry Weapons of WWII" with a mention of a "surprising number of short barreled Model 11 guns" being seen in the Pacific.

The M11 was a pretty popular gun with skeet shooters several decades ago, and you see a lot of them in 20 ga with Cutts comps because of that.

The A5/M11 design really fascinates me. While not one of his most famous designs, I don't think any gun shows John Browning's genius any better. Due in no small part to the incredible variety of shells at the time that couldn't be any more inconsistently loaded (smokeless or black powder in a variety of pressure levels, brass or paper hulls, an assortment of crimps, etc) designing an autoloading shotgun to work with more than a few loads was a feat. But JMB solved it in his typical simple fashion by using a bronze friction ring and a taper seated washer.

It was decades before there was a decent semiauto shotgun besides the Browning A5. Part of it was due to the patent protections, but a lot of it was just due to nobody else coming up with a good working mechanism. A lot came and went, but it was 40 years or so before the Remington 11-48 came along and gave it any serious competition. There haven't been many (if any) firearms designs that so dominate their class. The A5/M11 WAS the class.

MJC (Mandatory Johnson Content): When I first pulled the stock off my Johnson, I looked at the trigger parts and was immediately reminded of the A5/M11. Then when I read Bruce Canfield's book, the link was made clear.

[ryche_me 0]

Hey Barry My wifes is in 12GA. The comp does help. As an ode to Johnson i believe the barrel recoils also.

Hey Tom Thanks for the info i sent them an e-mail asking if the part will work. Even if they say no , it looks like i might be able to modify it to work. Its worth a couple of bucks to see if its possible. Do you like your AR180?, Not being a fan of the AR15, i enjoy shooting mine. Its every thing the AR15 should have been. Thanks once again Ryche

lso.

[TomW 0]

Hey Barry My wifes is in 12GA. The comp does help. As an ode to Johnson i believe the barrel recoils also.

Hey Tom Thanks for the info i sent them an e-mail asking if the part will work. Even if they say no , it looks like i might be able to modify it to work. Its worth a couple of bucks to see if its possible. Do you like your AR180?, Not being a fan of the AR15, i enjoy shooting mine. Its every thing the AR15 should have been. Thanks once again Ryche

lso.

Ryche- I like you, enjoy firing my AR-180 more than my AR-15. A number of years ago, I found on e-Bay, a reasonably priced Armalite factory scope, with quick detachment for sale. This scope allows a very quick acquisition of target, and for me, a lot more shooting enjoyment. The rifle came with a factory sling. Also found on e-Bay was an original factory operation & maintenance manual for both an AR-18 & also one for an AR-180. For the last couple of months, a local dealer, has been bringing a short barrel(factory) AR-180 to the local shows. I have been having a terrible time, keeping my hand away from the wallet.

[Gonzo 0]

Excellent job Barry! Always thought if any one has ever competed in 3 gun with the Johnson. haha Im sure everyone had their eye on you and got a kick out of it.

[roverboy 0]

Barry, that looks like a pretty neat shooting match. Thanks for posting.

[Barry in IN 0]

Tomorrow is the next Multi-gun match there, and probably the last until spring. I am painting our daughter's room this weekend, and I'm trying to time it so I have paint drying tomorrow morning so I can go.

Wish me luck with that.

Edit:

Never mind. Match rescheduled to the 31st.

I double check this after I get everything loaded up to go, of course.

[Story 0]

Barry,

Great outing, inspirational even.

You might enjoy the American ZootShooters - a vintage shooting sport

http://kahrtalk.com/american-zoot-shooters-association/

[Barry in IN 0]

I just read about the Zoot Shooters in the grocery store (American Handgunner). Looks interesting. I don't have a Tommy gun, though. Or a Zoot Suit. I used to have an A-O M1927A1, but it was a little rough and didn't stay around.

I looked at the Zooters' website. Two things I saw right off to keep me away (besides lack of a Thompson, which can be remedied):

First, there are only about five clubs doing it, and none are close. And second, I took a look at the rules, and I disagree with one of their principle gunhandling procedures.

I have enough to keep me busy anyway.