Serial Number 5538 Information Request

[DaveC 0]

Hello,

I have owned my first and only Johnson for probably close to 20 or so years. I am very interested to find out if what you show for this serial matches what I was told when I purchased it. It was purchased at one of the Pomona gun shows in So Cal way back when. At the time ( and still to this day), it was the most money I ever spent for a rifle. The handsome sum of $1000.00, which was a great deal of money for me. I probably overpaid at the time, but given today's prices, still not a bad investment.

The dealer had a table with at least 20 Johnson's, both rifles and LMGs as I recall. All the firearms were as new, and appeared un-fired. All did not have any oil on them and were still white-ish from the parkerizing process. The rifle I purchased, as well as all the firearms he had, were not black (dark blued), but had the greenish parkerizing like the WWII Garands on the receivers and barrels.

I was told by the dealer that he had acquired all of them from the estate of Melvin Johnson! That they were guns he apparently pulled off the assembly lines and kept! For some reason I recall him saying that the sale took place in Northern California which is a little weird, but I could be wrong on that. I asked, and he agreed to give me something in writing stating that the rife came directly from the Johnson estate, but when I went back the next day to pick it up (didn't have all the money with me the first day), I completely forgot to ask for the letter. Oh well?

Given the story, the apparently un-fired condition, and the color and type of finish, I have always wondered if the story was true or if this was a refinished, overhauled gun? What I can say is that all markings are crisp and clear, and the bolt and receiver have matching numbers (have not checked any other components).

Looking forward to hearing what the official ledgers might show. Thank you very much for helping.

[Brian Alpert 0]

The story if familiar but untrue as Ed Johnson, the son of Melvin will verify. The well known dealer, who shall remain nameless, supposedly bought out the remaining inventory of Winfield Arms when they closed their doors. If the story had any credence, and the rifle is in original, unaltered condition, the numbers I am giving you will match. Here is the data for JSAR#5538

Received from Cranston Arms 2/13/42

Stock #2

BBL #5861E

Hammer block #6708

Hammer #8021

Bolt X (unlisted?)

Locking cam #6382

Firing pin #A1439

Extractor #6130

Magazine #A1858

Transferred to Netherlands Purchasing Commission 2/16/42

Let us know what you find.

[Ed Johnson 0]

Gentlemen, as Brian has indicated, the dealer did NOT aquire any firearms from my father's estate. It was probably refurnished by Winfield and/or by the dealer himself.

I will await the outcome of the above parts inventory comparison but doubt that you will have an exact match.

The dealer made such claims in order to raise the price he would receive for the weapons. On the bright side, Dave, you paid $1000 about 20 years ago but it would appear that you have a rifle in very good condition, which (and Brian can correct me) is probably worth $4000 or more in today's market. In short, you overpaid at the time (and you had plenty of company, because we have had other, similar, reports) but you really have not lost value on the gun, allowing for the currency inflation.

Anyway, as Brian said, let us know what you find. Frankly, I would be absolutely delighted, on your behalf, if all the parts matched.....

[DaveC 0]

Brian and Ed, Thank you so very much for the reply and information. After this holiday I will make time to inventory the parts listed and post them on this thread, and post a few more pictures.. Have a wonderful holiday! Dave in So Cal

[DaveC 0]

Well, I started the field strip of my rifle using the guide provided here. I have the barrel and bolt assembly removed, but I am not certain I will go much farther until I acquire a detailed manual. At this point, I'm not certain there is much reason to go farther? Here is why.

What I seem to be finding makes more sense to me (not knowing the manufacturing and assembly practices at the time), than the Cranston Arms data kindly provided by Brian. for JSAR#5538 (serial number of my receiver). The reason? None of the part numbers provided by Brian match the receiver number??? Doesn't that seem odd to anyone? Usually a matching numbers gun means just that...that certain major components carry the same serial number as the receiver. So, why would a newly manufactured firearm have all different serial numbers on every component?

The reason for that question is of course, that I have found different component numbers on my firearm than those listed by Brian, but I think what I have found makes much more sense for an original firearm that has not been rebuilt. They are matching!

Here is what I identified to this point in the field stripping.

Receiver Serial Number: 5538

Bolt Serial Number: 5538

BBL Serial Number: 5538

Locking Cam Serial Number: 5538

Firing Pin Serial Number: K2777

I have not attempted to remove the buttstock, or go any further in the takedown,

Seems we have a bit of a mystery here?

I am very interested to hear from Ed and Brian on why "matching serial numbers" DO NOT make sense on an original, as new, firearm?

Dave

I

[Ed Johnson 0]

Dave,

The people who sold you the rifle made a point of putting components toigether with matching serial numbers, either because they were lucky enough to have a number of components they could put together to match up or by possibly machining and putting matching numbers on the components. They did this to try and create an "authentic" Johnson. In that sense, your weapon is a forgery. I know this sounds harsh.

If you were to buy a proper mauser pistol, the serial numbers would all match. My father designed a rifle and lmg where any part could go on any weapon and it did not matter if they matched or not. The readout you received from Brian Alpert is the way the rifle was initially assembled.

As I mentioned before, others have been victimized by such tactics. But as I also said, your rifle still has its purchase value....now with an interesting little story.

[DaveC 0]

I'll try to post some pictures of the serial numbered components in a day or so. i would like to know if the way the numbers appear (font, etc) look right or wrong. There doesn't seem to be any over strikes of any kind, so somehow, they must of had components w/o numbers in order to stamp them? Also, the area of serial numbers never came up when I purchased the gun, and it seems weird that they would go to the trouble of striking serial numbers on internal components? But, I completely accept what you are telling me.

It is a beautiful gun, and as much as it has been the jewel of my collection, I am thinking of selling it to get a long range rifle to shoot. Funny, you would think anyone that would go through the trouble of assembling a firearm such as this one would know what to "fake"? Why fake serial numbers that prove that the gun ISN'T original? Doesn't make sense? Was build information unavailable back then? I hate to think that the gun WAS ORIGINAL, but because none of the parts matched, they replaced them with parts that did! Wouldn't that be something?

[DaveC 0]

I took some pics in .jpg format and tried to create a gallery and upload them, but keep getting server errors. I tried both loaders. The files start loading with the progress bar, but end in a server error? Not sure how to resolve the issue? I was able to make them attachments in the post, but they were too small to be of any interest.

[Brian Alpert 0]

Dave,

The only known JSARs with matching numbers were (or are) a spurious group of rifles....from the same California dealer...known as "Queens Guard Carbines". They all had the original part numbers removed and matching numbers stamped (or cut), The rifles were fitted with new pistol grip stocks, shorter bbls and had "W" for Queen of the Netherlands Wilomena engraved on the top of the radiator. There are 4 or 5 of these around. Joseph Scott and I both have one. The dealer claimed that these were found incomplete in the Winfield Arms inventory he had purchased. He said he assembled them with new stocks. Of note is the fact that the W crests are all done with a pantograph and are of different sizes. THESE ARE NOTHING MORE THAN INTERESTING PHONIES!!! I also have a 41 LMG look-a-like (from the same individual) engraved with the Mexican Crest. I guess he did not get around to putting the crest on yours.

Brian