did they ever test a scoped Spitfire carbine?

[Rapidrob 0]

Many years ago I built a 5.7MMJ on a Winchester receiver using the Fulton Armory barrel. It shoots well but the rifling twist is wrong, so loads are a little on the light side. I had been looking for an original carbine since then. My question is,is that a fellow just sold me an original Johnson Spitfire carbine as made by the Johnson company. You can clearly see the feed ramp that was needed and the 1:16 twist barrel. The carbine has a very old Redfield scope mounted to it. The rear mount replaces the dove-tailed open sight. The front mount is just forward of the chamber. The top wood has been professionally milled to allow the mount to protrude. The two mounts are extremely sturdy. The workmanship is 1st rate,not a hobby weekend gunsmith job. I would guess this mounting is as strong as the infrared scope mount from Korea war era. Did Melvin Johnson or his company do a trial on a scoped Spitfire carbine? The scope is a fixed 4 power. The fellow who sold it to me bought it from an estate sale of a retired Army ordnance officer who passed away. His family said the officer had had the carbine since the late 50's. I can post photos later on when I return home from out of town work. Many alterations have been done to the stock and it shows that other sights or devices had been mounted at one time and then removed and the stock cuts filled in with plastic or Bakelite. Once again,done by those who knew what they were doing. What do you think or know about this?

[Ed Johnson 0]

Regarding the above entry, here are some comments and questions: 1) On your Winchester receiver,How long ago did you install the Fulton Armory barrel, and where did you buy it? 2) "The Rifling Twist is wrong"....in what manner is it wrong? What is the twist rate? 3) As to the "original Johnson Spitfire Carbine"....that you purchased....with !:16 twist and modified feed ramp... (a) What is the serial number of that carbine, probably found on the upper left side of the receiver? ( What is the name stamped on top of the receiver, indicating it came from the Johnson Company? © You indicate the original owner had the carbine since the late '50's....was this in .30 M1 Carbine form or did it have a 5.7mm barrel? There were conversions done in the earlier days. (d) The Johnson Company did not actively sell 5.7 Spitfires with scopes already mounted. However, the custom shop could pre-drill & tap mounting holes and actually mount a scope if requested. (e) You can post photos on this site at your convenience. Thank you for your entry. We'll look forward to hearing more, as noted. Ed J

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The barrel I bought was 1:12 twist, no good for this cartridge as the pressures go too high,too fast and you have to keep the velocities down below design specifications.

As to the history of the 5.7MMJ that I just got,and was told that it was an original Johnson Arms,I'm now not to sure about that.

The Carbine is built on Winchester parts,except for the bolt and barrel. I was told that the scope was a Redfield,it is not. It is a 1947 Weaver J2.5. It has been professionally mounted at the rear sight base and over the barrel. The Carbine was converted in the early 50's. There is a Crescent Moon stamped on the right hand side of the barrel,close to the gas block. The bore is .223 and has a 1:16" twist. The muzzle has a rebated crown. The barrel is of military contour with the exception that there is not front sight key-way.

There are two machined "flats" under the barrel at 6" centers. One is under the wood.

A black painted rectangle in under the "ejection port",perhaps to cut down reflected light for high speed photography? The wood under the paint is 100% OK. Who knows why it was done?

I loaded up 100 rounds this past weekend using some 40 grain FMJ's and softpoints made in the 60's for the .218 Bee cartridge. All are flat base. My load of IMR-4227 was able to push the little bullets to just over 3,000 FPS at 8,000 FASL where the range is.

At 100 yards the carbine will shoot 1" groups all day long. At 300 yards in a 15 mph wind I was able to keep all shots on a steel-man upper torso.

I took the optics out of the scope tube and cleaned them and the single post/wire is clearly seen. The scope holds zero very well and the adjustment screws are still very tight.

Fired brass shows no problems with pressures or cycling.

The original owner of this carbine has passed away and I bought this from a fellow who knew I like the 5.7MMJ cartridge.

What the real history of this little carbine is is anyone's guess. I sure would like to know it.

[Rapidrob 0]

More photo's

[Rapidrob 0]

How do you post more than one photo?

[Ed Johnson 0]

My apologies for a delay....our Webmaster had to correct a problem involving our Website server. We are now back in operation.

[Ed Johnson 0]

Barrel twist 1:16 sounds like Johnson. Melvin Johnson & myself did not produce Spitfires until the '60's. Your gun sounds like a conversion by competent gunsmith. Sounds like an accurate shooter. write me at ERJRICE@aol.com and I'll give you more 5.7 info. Thanks. Ed J

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Thanks for getting the site back up. Since my last post I've found some loads that work very well out of my carbine's 1:16 twist that are not safe out of my 1:14 twist carbine.

I'm very happy with the accuracy,it is so much better than the other carbine. So far I've only shot it out to 280 yards. I plan on using the 45 grain bullets out to 500 yards just for a test as I know this is beyond the design.

Tens 40 shots are in the center,the 4 o'clock group are 45 grain bullets

200 yard 45 grain bullets in a slight breeze.