Removing the end cap for the recoil spring tube

[eb in oregon 0]

I finally got the gumption up to disassemble my JSAR (bought last March) and check the recoil spring and insure there was no rust, clean, and oiled. Following the book I took it down and removed the butt stock. No problems so far, every thing looked good. I put the stock into my padded vice (wood jaws covered in carpet) and pulled out a tool I made a long time ago to remove the butt stock of an FN/FAL. I made it out of 3/4 inch cold rolled wherein I had milled a screw drive blade and inserted a T-handle. It also had a long rod in the middle to control the recoil spring of the FAL. It worked great. So I took out the rod and as the driving slot of the two different rifles is the same width I figured it would work great. Not really. The little shoulder on one side sheared rendering my tool broken. I can make a new tool out of 8620 and have it heat treated. I can even buy a 3/4 inch Proto Drag link socket and grind it narrower. And I've a tool store looking for one as I write this.

My concern though is if that nut/screw is that tight, is it rusted, or is it cross threaded? If it broke a tool of cold rolled steel could the stock be damaged if it refuses to break loose by the tube turning in the stock, shearing the key? While I ponder the issue I squirted the inside of the tube with penetrating oil, mopped the excess, and am letting it sit for a day or so. I'll probably repair my tool and give it another go. I'll probably also turn the end of a short rod down to just fit in the drain hole to keep it centered.

[dash 0]

I looped a box end wrench over each handle of a FAL tool to get enough leverage to break mine loose. Also sprayed some screw loose/break free product down the top side and let it sit overnite. It was orange and had a strong scent.

[camstuff 0]

EB brought up some good points about why is it so difficult to remove.  I wonder if some type of light pneumatic/impact type action, something with a little vibration that would break it loose without destroying the tube since it is a pretty light gauge metal tube. 

[eb in oregon 0]

4 hours ago, dash said:

I looped a box end wrench over each handle of a FAL tool to get enough leverage to break mine loose. Also sprayed some screw loose/break free product down the top side and let it sit overnite. It was orange and had a strong scent.

I've done that with other things, but I'll use some small diameter pipe I keep on hand. Easier to control. But now I've an idea how tight it might be. I appreciate the heads up.

21 minutes ago, camstuff said:

EB brought up some good points about why is it so difficult to remove.  I wonder if some type of light pneumatic/impact type action, something with a little vibration that would break it loose without destroying the tube since it is a pretty light gauge metal tube. 

Nope. I've twisted small bolts off so I'll avoid air tools. Especially as there are no adaptors available to use my 1/4 drive butterfly. I'll put a soldering iron on the cap first and try a bit of heat. If the thing still works.

[Blueheeler 0]

I have one thats good and stuck. It has resisted a FAL tool, a modified drag link socket and an easy out type screw puller. When I get a chance I'll try Kroil and a little heat and go at it again.

[eb in oregon 0]

It just occurred to me. For years I've had a Weller soldering gun that has been way abused. The housing has melted a bit. But, it came with a tip with a little flat plate that before today I'd never had a use for. But, if I apply heat to the nut with that and get it as warm as possible, it may work. But as that old gun has had issues if it works this last time I'll retire it.

[M48TANKER 0]

Hey Guys,

I've used this "slide hammer" set up to remove a couple of recoil tubes. The main portion of the "tool" is just a holder for a drill bit extension that happened to fit the recoil tube. Of course the recoil assembly comes out the FRONT of the stock. This worked for the couple which I did and they were not stuck hard so your mileage may vary. My caveat is just: "Don't tear it up"

To use the slide hammer method you have to get the end cap screw out first. I ground a flat piece of steel to fit the exact dimensions of the slot of the cap screw. Then a hand struck impact driver, from my motorcycle tool box was used to gently tap, tap, tap...first in a counter clockwise direction, and then gently clockwise as if installing. Alternate removal stresses back and forth. Generous amounts of "Break-Free". Once you can get a few counter clockwise turns on it you may put a penny or other softer material to shield the cap screw from the hammer face and gently tap on the cap screw, toward the front, to break the tube free from the wood. Only tap forward as far and your threads allow, then back the cap out a few threads and tap  again. stop short of damaging the last thread or two. EASY DOES IT.

And, by the way: Don't forget to remove the recoil check bar and it's screws!

[flyer338 0]

This video spends some time on removing and reinstalling the recoil spring tube.

 

[eb in oregon 0]

On 10/20/2021 at 9:10 AM, M48TANKER said:

Hey Guys,

I've used this "slide hammer" set up to remove a couple of recoil tubes. The main portion of the "tool" is just a holder for a drill bit extension that happened to fit the recoil tube. Of course the recoil assembly comes out the FRONT of the stock. This worked for the couple which I did and they were not stuck hard so your mileage may vary. My caveat is just: "Don't tear it up"

To use the slide hammer method you have to get the end cap screw out first. I ground a flat piece of steel to fit the exact dimensions of the slot of the cap screw. Then a hand struck impact driver, from my motorcycle tool box was used to gently tap, tap, tap...first in a counter clockwise direction, and then gently clockwise as if installing. Alternate removal stresses back and forth. Generous amounts of "Break-Free". Once you can get a few counter clockwise turns on it you may put a penny or other softer material to shield the cap screw from the hammer face and gently tap on the cap screw, toward the front, to break the tube free from the wood. Only tap forward as far and your threads allow, then back the cap out a few threads and tap  again. stop short of damaging the last thread or two. EASY DOES IT.

And, by the way: Don't forget to remove the recoil check bar and it's screws!

 

Thank you for the reply, I appreciate your time. I'm afraid you misunderstood as I'm only trying to remove the cap under the butt plate. I have no intention of removing the recoil spring tube unless it is unserviceable. Which at this point is an unknown but I think not a problem. That screw cap is on tight. I can remake my tool, but I'm pondering heat treating cold rolled steel. My experience in heat treating is limited. The hand impact hammer is a good idea, but would be a pain to make a tool with a square drive. I'm still considering some options. However I'm wondering if an air tool is the tool used to install that nut in the first place as to use such a tool requires a learned "feel" as to how tight you get it. Unless there is a regulator that will only allow so much torque. Regardless it seems some come off more easily than others which is inconsistent installation of said nut.

Edited October 21, 2021 by eb in oregon
clarity

[eb in oregon 0]

So I recut my tool and tried it again, trying to make it just under the slots width (.07 measured with calipers) and had to stone it down a bit. It didn't quite want to fit. However a smart tap with the dead blow hammer got it to seat. And lo and behold the cap nut moved not quite a quarter turn. And then the driving lug started to shear again. I'll recut it again, but this time I'm going to heat it cherry red and then after cooling to about room temperature bake it at 400 degrees until the tool reaches 400 degrees, then let it cool normally. Really, if it breaks again I don't care, as long as it lasts long enough to get that nut out without damaging it. Apparently those nuts were installed with a better tool than I have. I'll tell you though, I'm almost to the point to just put it together and forget about it.

https://www.ehow.com/how_8707106_heat-treat-1095-steel.html

[flyer338 0]

I used to use an old trick when trying to remove something with compromised (rusty, dirty, etc.) threads. First do whatever you can to get lubricant/penetrant on the threads. It you can unscrew it even a small amount (1/4 turn) add lubricant and then tighten a little before trying to unscrew further - repeat until you get it unscrewed.

Turning in the opposite direction tends to clear the threads a little so that you can unscrew a little more. When it gets tight, add lubricant and twist the opposite direction. With a little patience and lots of penetrant/lube, you will have it apart without damaging anything.

This is a common trick in my former trade. I do not know that everyone knows this secret.

I caution against using heat on the plug - heat will cause it to expand. You want the tube to expand and the plug to shrink. That might be difficult. Once you get it to turn even a little, what I posted above should work.

[matconcrete 0]

Sometimes a one time tool is all you need, we needed a 3” +- spanner socket , available at $900 on ebay , we built one out of tubing off the rack and oil quenched the tips , it did the job fine , at a cost of a couple hours labor. Never be afraid to try.

[eb in oregon 0]

5 minutes ago, flyer338 said:

I used to use an old trick when trying to remove something with compromised (rusty, dirty, etc.) threads. First do whatever you can to get lubricant/penetrant on the threads. It you can unscrew it even a small amount (1/4 turn) add lubricant and then tighten a little before trying to unscrew further - repeat until you get it unscrewed.

Turning in the opposite direction tends to clear the threads a little so that you can unscrew a little more. When it gets tight, add lubricant and twist the opposite direction. With a little patience and lots of penetrant/lube, you will have it apart without damaging anything.

This is a common trick in my former trade. I do not know that everyone knows this secret.

Thank you, I understand. I didn't quite get a quarter turn before my tool started shearing. So apparently a tool somewhat stouter needs be applied.

[flyer338 0]

And penetrant/lubricant - these are much less expensive than replacing the plug and tube.

[eb in oregon 0]

19 hours ago, flyer338 said:

I caution against using heat on the plug - heat will cause it to expand. You want the tube to expand and the plug to shrink. That might be difficult. Once you get it to turn even a little, what I posted above should work.

I applied plenty of penetrating oil for several days before attempting to remove the nut the second time. As for heat, yes it does expand the material it is applied too. However the concept is to heat it up so it will expand then let it cool down to room temperature. The expanding and contracting helps loosen any rust or grime. Never try to remove the nut or bolt while it is hot. That breaks things. Actually several cycles of heating and cooling worked just swell in most cases during these last 50 years. The problem is how to apply enough heat to the plug without using fire. That usually sets the stock ablaze.

However this morning I recut my tool again and it turned out perfect. It fits the slot of the nut just fine. And I turned a small plug to fit inside the drain hole to keep it centered and the tool feels like it will do the job. Now I'm thinking about heat treating the tool as I'm pretty sure if I don't it will break again before the nut breaks loose. If I had used a better steel this probably wouldn't have been an issue, but I used what I had at the time.

Edit: However the idea just occurred to me after having lunch I should have looked for an end mill with a slight radius on the corners as the straight edge makes a weak spot. Humm.........

Edited October 23, 2021 by eb in oregon
Additional information

[flyer338 0]

Sir, I aplogize. I think you know more than I.

I know nothing about various methods and levels of heat treating; I have forgotten more than I currently know about shade-tree mechanic tricks.
I think we agree on first principles: let us not break anything.

[eb in oregon 0]

14 hours ago, flyer338 said:

Sir, I aplogize. I think you know more than I.

I know nothing about various methods and levels of heat treating; I have forgotten more than I currently know about shade-tree mechanic tricks.
I think we agree on first principles: let us not break anything.

Sir, no apology is necessary as we all have opinions based upon our experience and we tend to share our experience with others. However all experience is not the same so sometimes we make assumptions. That's part of life. And you are absolutely correct, "first do no harm."

[eb in oregon 0]

Will wonders never cease. After stewing about it for a few days I decided "Well, if the tool breaks again without heat treat I'll try four times." So I went into the shop and gave it a go. Apparently the last time when I got the nut to budge a bit before the tool broke it had broken the nut loose and it's been sitting with more penetrating oil these last two days. It came out easily with no difficulties. I cleaned the tube with a bottle brush, exchanged the recoil spring with a new one (the old spring measured 11 1/4), and reassembled the rifle. Though it's a little fiddly if you have never taken a JSAR apart it went together with minor cursing and a few tries. Now I'll take it to the range this Saturday and see if it works.

As mine is rather buggered up does anyone have a spare rear trigger guard screw they would be willing to sell? I've spent some time searching and can't seem to locate any shop that has one in stock. I can repair the screw a bit, but the slot will always be a little ragged.

 

[ArtR 0]

Which screw? One under safety selector or one to butt end?

[eb in oregon 0]

42 minutes ago, ArtR said:

Which screw? One under safety selector or one to butt end?

The wood screw towards the butt end (which is supposed to be the same screw as the butt plate according to the parts diagram and parts list), not the machine screw under the safety switch. While the one under the safety switch is a little chewed it isn't as chewed as the small one.

[ArtR 0]

Supposedly SARCO has this screw

[eb in oregon 0]

I "fixed" the screw. It looks "good enough." However thank's Art, I almost bought a couple "just because."