Notes on loads.

[eb in oregon 0]

Today I got to shoot for several hours with five friends. The tools available were impressive. With some others I'd brought my 5.7 Johnson Carbine. I shot 20 rounds of the 40 grain Hornet semi-spitzer loaded with 12 grains of H110 power and had no malfunctions which was reloaded ammunition that I had purchased this last year or so. The load I was told was supposed to be this, and pulling a cartridge demonstrated it was a 40 grain bullet and a 12 grain charge of what appeared to be H110. I have a large jug of it and it looks the same with a glass.

While I had no malfunctions two others experienced failures to eject and one failure to feed.

I'm thinking that 12 grains of H110 isn't enough. There is the issue of "dirty," but failures to extract after only 20 rounds seems weird for a battle rifle.

The chronographed velocities had a standard deviation of about 758 fps with an average of 2400 or so. That's not good. I've had issues in the past loading a cartridge at low levels, and a smokey case pretty much states it was at a lower pressure than desirable and velocities were inconsistent.

Just something to consider if reloading this cartridge.

The best part was when those guys who shot it said "Man, this is a smoking gun, why haven't I heard of it and where can I get one."

A chuckle and a sardonic smirk was the best I could manage. After a speech of who designed it, what is was capable of in a jungle environment (especially if select fire capable), and why it crashed because the caliber of ammunition was not supported by any ammunition manufacturer of worth.

I had a great day as brunch and a beer followed.

[Ed Johnson 0]

EB....my apologies for a slow reply. A friend just died recently, which distracted me this past week.

I do not have any direct experience with H110. As I think you know, we ended up using 11.5 grains of 4227 and got average 2800 FPS with no excess pressure showing. I'm not sure how much room you have left in the case if you go up to as much as 13 grains of H110 in order to increase velocity. And I can hear dad in my ear telling me to watch out for excessive chamber pressure. If the primer is distorted (or the gun blows up) then you have gone too far.    ej

 

 

 

[eb in oregon 0]

"If the primer is distorted (or the gun blows up) then you have gone too far."

That part I know. I'm thinking 12.5 grains is the lower limit with H110 as the cases demonstrate a low pressure load (very smokey) and the velocities are not consistent. I've experienced that phenomenon before with several cartridges. And the case appears to be able to accommodate another 1/2 grain.

H110 is a good powder for the .30 caliber M1 Carbine and I'm convinced it Is a good selection for the 5.7MMJ. However I bought enough ammunition to last pretty much my entire life. I'm just offering a little experience and a suggestion.

Thank's Ed for your reply. I'm sorry about your friend, however that's one of the down sides to getting older. One has fewer and fewer friends.

[ArtR 0]

Unfortunately, as the 5.7 MMJ  is not listed in any manual that I can find, I assume that one would need to go with the recommended load by Ed as a starting point.

H110, H4227, IMR 4227, and 296 powders all nestle in side by side with one and other in most burn rate charts, so performance may well be expected to be similar.

I have used all pretty extensively over the years, and have had relatively good luck with all.

When loading for the 30 Carbine, I use H4227 (13.5gr)  and occasionally H110 (12.5gr). I have not really noticed 'dirty' with either. I shoot .30 Carbine in both the M1 Carbine and also in a Ruger New Model Blackhawk. Always fun to have a rifle and handgun in the same caliber!

However, I have used H4227 and IMR 4227 (9.0gr, 9.1gr)in .38SPL, and .38+P (12.5gr).  With the .38SPL, I do notice black residue both on the cylinder and empty cases.  Not so with the .38+P. I suspect that the difference is the +P loads are a bit hotter and getting a better burn.  I recently noticed that Hodgdon no longer lists H4227 on their website, so sometime in the future I may have to rethink that or do some testing with some other options. No rush, as I have 'big jugs' of most stuff, and I can get a ton of reloads from one. I have a quite cool and very dry storage location for my powders.

 

[eb in oregon 0]

On 1/31/2023 at 10:30 AM, ArtR said:

Unfortunately, as the 5.7 MMJ  is not listed in any manual that I can find, I assume that one would need to go with the recommended load by Ed as a starting point.

H110, H4227, IMR 4227, and 296 powders all nestle in side by side with one and other in most burn rate charts, so performance may well be expected to be similar.

The 5.7 was once in Barnes "Cartridges of the World," I don't know if it still is. It's also listed in Donnelly's "Manual of Cartridge Conversations."

I don't think there is a nickel's worth of difference between the four powders you have mentioned and I too have used them all. However I have noted smokey cases with cartridges on the lower end of the tables which disappeared by bumping up the charge a bit. As always pay attention to detail and watch closely for signs of over pressure. Once you start seeing flattened primers you need back off a bit.

[ArtR 0]

3 hours ago, eb in oregon said:

I don't think there is a nickel's worth of difference between the four powders you have mentioned ...

eb: I agree.

Regardless of any similarities in powders, anyone who is new to reloading should be reminded that substituting powders in a load recipe is a definite no-no.

Do not substitute one powder in place of another, unless the powder to be used has a recommended safe loading charge in the powder manufacturers load data for the particular cartridge. Much better to be safe than sorry.

[eb in oregon 0]

I once drove a truck into Lewiston Idaho to the Speer bullet company to deliver a 45ft trailer of ground corn cob that Speer used to polish their bullets. As we were waiting I went into the office and asked if I could ask a ballistician a question. Sure, no problem. I can't remember his name, but his picture was in Speer's reloading manual. I asked why Unique was not listed in Speer's newest reloading manual for the .45 Colt as it was in the older manual. His reply was "There is only so much room in a book and too many powders to list. As long as you stay around the same burn rate and work up you should have no problems." I used that advice to research, test, prove, and write an article regarding the 7.62x25 Russian cartridge which was published in Handloader magazine in October 1999.

 

 

[camstuff 0]

This is great EB!  

[eb in oregon 0]

1 hour ago, camstuff said:

This is great EB!  

I appreciate the thought "TJ."

[Smaug 0]

On 1/23/2023 at 6:17 PM, Ed Johnson said:

EB....my apologies for a slow reply. A friend just died recently, which distracted me this past week.

I do not have any direct experience with H110. As I think you know, we ended up using 11.5 grains of 4227 and got average 2800 FPS with no excess pressure showing. I'm not sure how much room you have left in the case if you go up to as much as 13 grains of H110 in order to increase velocity. And I can hear dad in my ear telling me to watch out for excessive chamber pressure. If the primer is distorted (or the gun blows up) then you have gone too far.    ej

 

 

 

A little late, but sorry about you friend.  

I can testify to your "... watch out for excessive chamber pressure" comment.  Many, many years ago when I was curious about the MMJ 5.7, I was given a barrel in "....22 - Carbine, might be a Johnson Spitfire" where the gas chamber had "blown out".  As I recollect, the gas cylinder had cracked and the piston was frozen in place. The old feller (I'm probably older now than he was at the time), had put the barrel on an action of some sort and he says he'd been shooting it - AS IS!.  He gave me the barrel after he had replaced it with a normal barrel.  I still have that barrel around somewhere, this thread made me think about it so now I have to go dig around and find it...