Opinions and info requested on recent purchase

[David Slam 0]

I've been reading this site for the last couple of days, and first I'd like to say thanks to all the admins and users who have kept such good content coming. Newbies such as myself appreciate it!

Yesterday I happened across a Johnson that caught my eye. I took some pictures with a cheap camera phone, so I apologize for them not being more clear. Any information anyone here can give me on this rifle's collectibility, worth, or history would be fantastic. My questions are thus:

1.) The stock is obviously refinished. But is it the original stock?

2.) It has a "B-series" serial number. Is the B series less desirable or historical?

3.) What would the approximate worth of this rifle be? Not necessarily what you'd pay, but what you'd expect to see it go for via gunbroker, et. al.

4.) Has the metal been re-parkerized? Sorry once again if the pictures aren't clear enough.

5.) Any idea whether the sling is original? I'm guessing no, but it certainly looks old enough.

Thanks in advance for your help! Feel free to go beyond the scope of my questions, too!

[walt 0]

Dave,

This rifle is a definite collectible. Did you purchase it? If not what is or was the shops price? Without taking this rifle apart and inspecting the condition of all internal parts it would be hard to set a price. The stocks appear to be original but without seeing the whole rifle again I can only speculate on their finish. What's on the end of the buttstock?

Non prefixed rifles and "A and B" series are just as desirable. The only thing I can think of would that would separate them is having the internal part numbers match the production log for the "A/B" series rifles. The production logs for the A/B series rifles has not been located as of yet.

For the sling it certainly appears to be aged and could be the sling that has been on this rifle for a period of time.

Again without seeing this rifle as a whole it would be hard for me to comment on the finish. The picture you took of the rear sight assembly reveals the windage knob appears to be two different colors the same goes for the magazine outer shellappears to be different color to the receiver and barrel assembly. Lift up the rear sight assembly and see if it was drilled for a scope mount if it was or had been and is now plugged then the price should be reduced considerably.

Was this barrel ever crowned? It could be the picture that gives this impression.

This rifle may have all original Johnson internal parts but it I think it would be doubtful if any of the part numbers would match the production log if we had them. Most of the non prefixed rifles I have inspected did not have any parts matching the production log.

It amazes me as to how people can ask the prices they do without backing up their prices with documentation saying this rifle matches the production log. Then again there are alot of folks out there who know nothing of these rifles.

One cannot go by auction site prices because of the absurdity of these prices. Some of these auction sites appear to be for folks with really deep pockets.

walt

[Bruce Canfield 0]

Based on the limited amount of information that can be garnered from the photos, the rifle appears to be original with the exception of the refinished stock. Remove the buttplate and check to see how many holes are in the butt to determine if the stock is legit or has been replaced.

Judging the originality of the parkerizing based on photos is problematic but the markings do not appear to be "washed out," which would suggest the metal has not been refinished (although the photos are not clear enough to be certain).

The issue regarding the serial numbers on the parts is often overblown and is just not that important with Johnson rifles as none of the rifles were ever assembled with all "matching" parts. As stated, the production ledger for the "no prefix" rifles is available and the parts that were on the rifles when they left the factory can usually be ascertained. This is not the case for the "A" or "B" prefix rifles since the production ledgers have not turned up. Having the "correct" numbered parts on a no-prefix rifle is a nice touch, but a rifle is not normally devalued to any extent if the parts have been swapped. The numbers on the parts of Johnson rifles is just not a big deal as compared to many other military weapons. All other things being equal, there is no difference in value between "no prefix," "A" prefix or "B" prefix rifles.

The sling on the rifle is a US M1907 sling and is clearly not the original factory sling (which was a totally different design).

Values of Johnson rifles are dependent on condition and degree of originality and can range from $3500 or so to $10,000 (yes, several have recently sold at or near that price). It wouldn't be wise to put a value on your rifle without a close examination but if it is original, it would probably bring somewhere in the lower mid-range of the above two values.

[David Slam 0]

Walt and Bruce,

Thank you both for your replies. Bruce, you and I have been corresponding via e-mail regarding your book, and this is the rifle I was talking about. I decided after reading the last message you sent to me to buy the rifle, thinking that even with the refinished stock it was worth the asking price of $3500. They only go up in value, right? I've never sold a gun anyway, so that's a theoretical side-issue...

I look forward to receiving the book so that I can go through the rifle in detail. I'll take some better pictures with a proper camera and post them here after I get a chance to do that.

Thanks again, both of you!

[ArtR 0]

Like Walt and Bruce said, without better pictures or hands on close examination, it is quite hard to determine exact condition. But then again, value is what one is willing to pay. Well, for $3500, I think you made a wise decision. It is certainly a good looking rifle, and will add considerable interest to your collection, and most certainly will gain value over time. Best wishes....ArtR

[Gonzo 0]

The rifle is an obvious repark by looking at this picture.

The magazine is a different color then the receiver. The magazine looks to be original park with some wear...it has the greyish-green patina color, which may have been coated in cosmoline. From what a few shops told me, they do not know how to completely disassemble the magazine, so they leave it alone...this kind of makes sense when you see pictures of refinished rifles and the magazine are the only part unfinished or still blued. The rest of your rifle looks recently parkerized, which most jobs now-a-days are done charcoal black.

Even if the wood is refinished and the rifle reparked, it still is a great find for $3500. These rifles are just skyrocketing no matter what condition they are in. Post some better pics when you can.

[David Slam 0]

I've finally gotten a chance to take some proper pictures, as seen below:

Here are a couple of the lettering on the receiver. Hopefully they are clear enough to give some evidence either for or against reparkerizing.

This one shows a what appears to be an "M" in a circle. Anyone know what this symbol signifies?

This appears to show the number "3" stamped into the underside of the stock. Proof mark?

[David Slam 0]

Here you can see the black paint on the rear sight chipping away, revealing parkerizing underneath.

Once again, thanks for your information so far, and anything else you can add based on these new pictures. I can certainly take more if there's something you're not seeing.

Thanks!

[ArtR 0]

Still, IMHO, a very nice specimen.

I am not aware of any reason the rear sight has "paint", unless someone did paint it.

Many competitive shooters would have blackened the rear sight with carbide, and it is possible, but not probable, the carbide built up and hardened over time. The other possibility is the rear sight was replaced from another rifle. The additional stock pictures show a nice piece of wood, in very good condition, probably sanded at some time, but hard to say for sure.

Well worth the $3500 you invested....wise decision...keep it!

[webmaster 0]

I have seen some of the later type of rear sights with the etch paint finish.

[LoboMike 0]

Might be my senior eyes, but does the serial number appear to be double stamped? At least on the first number. Not sure if this means anything. Is there "history" about such activity?

Mike

[David Slam 0]

I agree that the first number "6" appears to have a double stamp, and a couple of the other numbers have deeper stamps on the lower ends. I don't know much about these rifles, but in my research over the last week or so, I've seen several pictures of serial numbers that are similar. Having been a machinist myself a long time ago, I can see how this would happen, assuming the numbering was being done by hand.

[Brian Alpert 0]

Painted rear sights are not unusual. Type 2 and 3 rear sights were apparently painted if the copper brazing showed, since the braze would not take "blackening". (Type I sights were milled from solid stock .) For what it is worth, the finish looks original to me. This is based on the sharpness of the lettering and the light color of the magazine compared to the receiver. Original finish on receivers varied from black to light green. Original specs called for the parts to be "blackened". Joseph Scott had an original finish receiver tested by some sort of metallurigist who reported that the finish was a form of "blueing"! Very nice rifle at an excellent price.

[Bob Lamoreaux 0]

Regarding the number 3 stamped on the stock (fore-end?). The production logs indicate some JSARs with a "stock number". I don't think the RKIs (Reasonably Knowledgable Individuals) have figured out what these numbers indicate -- subcontractor, design variation, etc. As you see, there is still ALOT of mystery to Johnson weapons! Really nice looking rifle!

Bob