Mexican "Semi-Auto Johnson LMG?"

[Jeff Z 0]

Yesterday I encountered a unique firerarm. It looks very similar in design and action to the Johnson 1941 and 1946 LMGs but it seems to function in semiautomatic only. It has some Mexican stampings. Not being a student of the Johnson firearms, I am not familiar with any of their LMG style rifles manufactured in a semiautomatic configuration. Can anyone shed any light on this for me?

Thanks in advance!

Jeff Z

[Bob Lamoreaux 0]

I think this is the second inquiry about the "Mexican" marked Johnson semi-autos in machine gun configuration. I'd really like to see a photo of the entire piece as well as the markings.

One of two (probably more!) possibilities exist: This was a firearm made from a semi-auto (rifle) receiver and a l.m.g. parts kit. These kits were available in the '80s (about 400 of them) and I'm reasonably sure most were "grafted" to semi-auto rifle receivers either as select-fire weapons or in semi-auto only mode.

The second possibility is that this is one of the extremely rare M1947 Johnsons that looked very much like a M1944 l.m.g. but was in semi-auto only. There was a "choice" of magazines: either the typical 10-round rotary or the side box magazine housing in which either ten- or twenty-round magazines would be placed (just like on the JLMGs). Additionally, there may have been a provision for affixing the LOOOOONNNNNGGGGG sword bayonet beneath the barrel jacket, as on at least one of the very early prototypes of the JSAR. Don't know why this provision was made!

At least one M1947 was available to collectors, etc., offered by Class III dealer R.J. Perry. This one came from the Buffalo Bill Cody Museum Auction in, I guess, the '60s or '70s (Winchester Collection). Can't explain Mexican markings. Could they be Argentine markings?

Bob

[Jeff Z 0]

I am holding the firearm right now. It has the low front sight like the regular rifle but a ventalated shroud like the LMG. It feeds from the left side via the same box mags as the LMGs. Verbage on top simply says:

Ejercito Mexicano

Serial Number 0005X

and on the right side of the receiver it says:

Systema Johnson

Model 1941

Calibre 7mm (in a light inlet where something was obviously milled down a bit)

Fabrica de Armas

Providence, RI USA

Selector says:

SAFE (12 0'Clock position)

FIRE (3 0'Clock Position)

Some of the other Johnson LMG pieces I have DID come from the Winchester Museum so your guess is a distinct possibility.

My records indicate that it is "a Mexican issued Johnson model of 1941 Semi-auto millitary issue repeating service rifle - Experimental model: cross between Model 1941 Semi-auto rifle and 1941 light machine gun" but I want to verify this.

Thanks again!

Jeff Z

[Joseph Scott 0]

In the 2004 Johnson get-together in Houston, we had one such "Mexican" on display by one of our group. It is a made up semi-auto gun. I don't remember the serial number. The marked receiver came from a Califonia source who we believe had a bunch of "special engraved" receivers made. Careful examination of the "Queen's carbines" showed them to be fakes when compared side by side. Believed to come from same source.

[Mike-in-CA 0]

I love this board for just this reason, topics and discussions just like this!

[Brian Alpert 0]

I saw pictures (See attached picture. http://i14.tinypic.com/85dhnwx.jpg )

of the above described firearm while at the Johnson Collectors gathering at the Springfield show a few years ago. The pictures were of guns in the collection of a prominent collector in the North East who recently passed. It is virtually impossible to use those rifle sights with the LMG straight line stock! In my opinion, a most interesting phony. I personally own a Mexican crested semi-auto 41 LMG look-a-like. It came with a 10 round horizontal magazine. Also an interesting phony.

[Jeff Z 0]

Thanks Brian! You guys have been a great help. How does one place a value on such a firearm? I am cataloging it for an auction company as part of the estate sale for the family of the deceased that you mentioned. Any assistance is extremely appreciated. My main concern is a correct and fair description for those bidding on this and a reasonable value of such a piece.

I am SO pleased I stumbled upon this site!

Jeff Z

[Brian Alpert 0]

Jeff, I would describe it as "an unusual 1941 Johnson made up of a modified JSAR receiver with a LMG lower, Mexican markings (in Spanish), rifle bbl and sights...a most interesting non-factory assemblage by persons or organizations unknown." That firearm would be almost impossible to aim with the rifle sights and straight line LMG rear.

A complete, functional 41 LMG look-a-like goes for between 4 and 10 thousand. I would guess that is worth whatever one will pay for it. I got my Mexican crested (fully functional) LMG look-a-like for 3 a few years ago. Some of us like odd balls, others would not touch them.

[Bob Lamoreaux 0]

I'm not sure where I got this info, but back in the early or mid-80s -- when the JLMG parts kits came on the market, a "gunsmith" in Colorado put together some semi-only "replica" JLMGs. I don't have any additional info, except that the p/ks apparently did not come with bipods and the fellow had to make them. Don't know the relationship between this "gunsmith" and the fellow in California.

I wouldn't discount some "one-of-a-kind" Johnsons turning up eventually. Remember that the Cody Museum sold off a number of them -- mostly JLMGs, I believe -- and they should still be floating around. I did e-mail the Cody Museum asking if they had a catalog and "prices realized" from the auction(s) and received a reply that they would look through their library but never heard anything else. It would be nice to know exactly what was sold so that Johnson collectors would have some idea of what is out there and what is "original but weird".

[Joseph Scott 0]

Since the gun in question is from deceased owner, I strongly recommend that it be test fired to be sure it is correctly and legally modified for semi-automatic action only. There are certain internal, permanent, modifications required to be semi only. It is possible that these modifications have not been completed and that it could "run" and hence be illegal and dangerous for a new owner.

On mention of the Cody musuem who got the Winchester collection, it remined me of the documents I purchased from a retired Winchester employee who cleaned out Mr. Pugsley's office after he left. In them were copies of Johnson Automatics annual stock reports (and many other Johnson documents). I believe Mr. Pugsley was an investor in Johnson Automatics. Does anyone else know of any connection?

[Tim 0]

View 50 **MEXICAN JOHNSON MODEL 1941 SEMIAUTOMATIC RIFLE. SN 00052. Cal. 7x57mm - An extremely interesting and unusual Johnson semiautomatic rifle. Our research has lead us in a few different directions on this gun. According to the records of the previous owner, it is believed to be an experimental model; a cross between the standard Model 1941 Semiautomatic rifle and the Model 1941 light machine gun. Some of the other rare Johnson models included in this estate auction were once housed in the Winchester Museum and it is possible that this was yet another example although we are not in possession of any documentation to confirm that. It is also possible that it was a non-factory assembled rifle built from a modified JSAR receiver with an LMG lower, as a few others that have been spotted around the country. Marked “Ejercito Mexicano” on the top of the receiver and “Systema Johnson” on the right side of the receiver. The rifle is complete with a bayonet and leather scabbard. There is a circular perforated barrel shroud similar to the Model 1941 LMG. The front sight is a protected blade and the rear sight is adjustable for windage and elevation. There is a dust cover on the right side of the receiver, directly opposite the magazine-well, for charging the magazine without removing it from the firearm. Wood forearm, pistol grip and shoulder stock. The shoulder stock has a metal buttplate and is also very similar to the model 1941 LMG. Sling swivel on front is under front of barrel shroud and rear sling swivel is under the rear stock. Includes 1 magazine and a green web sling. PROVENANCE: Stern Collection. CONDITION: Condition Fine - The metal has retained the vast majority of the original parkerized finish. Everything seems to be in fine working condition and the fire control mechanism appears to function smooth and correctly when cycled by hand. Bore is bright and the rifling is deep. The wood is typical of every other LMG example in the collection. While there are several dings and gouges associated with “armory style handling” the structural integrity is not decreased.

[Bruce Canfield 0]

Whoever wrote the ad copy for the auction house should win some sort of award for creative writing! My absolute favorite passage was the comment "...armory style handling." What in the world is "armory style handling"?

[Matt K. 0]

Is there a link to this auction somewhere?

[Matt K. 0]

I just viewed this collection.

I am feeling very inadequate right now.

[Tim 0]

Seems like auctions/and some folks try to get all they can out of an item $ wise.....buyer beware is true no matter where you buy an item ....always be careful. This is just my opinion.

[ArtR 0]

Maybe you have heard the saying, "the man who dies with the most toys, wins!", well, this guy must have been a real contender!!!!