Rock Island Auction "semi" LMG

[Bob Lamoreaux 0]

I received my "preview" brochure for the December "premier" auction held by Rock Island Auction and noted a "factory prototype" of a semi-auto JLMG. I suspect this is one of those "parts" guns from the early 80s, I believe. Picture shows what appears to be an authentic JLMG receiver. . .has the block below the radiator sleeve for the bipod as well as the "ears" for the lmg rear sight. No "bump" for the rifle rear sight dove-tail.

I really doubt that this is a factory prototype. The only lmg "looking" semi that may have been produced is the M1948 (I think that is the designation) which looked like the M1944 lmg but with a rotary mag and provision for the sword bayonet (attaching at the rear bottom of the radiator sleeve). Frankly, I doubt this was fabricated even in prototype form.

Anyway, the photo shows what appears to be a very nice Johnson. Wonder if it will go for over $10,000. . .

[Brian Alpert 0]

Wow! Those are some interesting LMG Look -a-likes

http://www.rockislandauction.com/search.as...6562&aid=48

There are 5 of them. I don't know about prototypes but for what it is worth:

#1786 Great job on welding the rear sight base so it looks integral

#1787 8mm Dror box mag grafted to receiver. The 2nd model 8mm Dror was made in Israel in the early 50's

#3653 Has a different rear sight base welded on a modified JSAR receiver with a rifle forend

#3654 8mm Dror (2nd Model) rebuilt in Semi on a modified JSAR receiver

#3655 303 (1st model) Dror built on modified JSAR receiver The 1960 date is interesting since these were produced in 1947 or 48

All in all this is a most interesting group produced by a master welder judging from the sight bases and grafting of the radiators on the Drors

[ryche_me 0]

I believe that these are the same ones i spoke about last dec. or so. I saw them at the Phoenix SAR. show. Surf City Firearms i think. Who ever his machinist is does a beautiful job. I wouldn't mind having the pat.2 DROR but not at that price.

[Brian Alpert 0]

Ah! That explains it. Enough said.

[BORE 0]

Ah! That explains it. Enough said.

Brian ! I actually had his 303 cal Dror with side feed magazine in my hands about 4-5 years ago. I had to return the gun due to the very poor quality...Welding spots were very rough , poor fit and finish on almost all the parts.. BORE.

[Bob Lamoreaux 0]

Correction! This shows how age is causing momentary memory loss! The block below the radiator sleeve on one of the illustrated JLMG "semis" is for the fore end screw or is a "spacer" block -- can't remember which, NOT the bipod mount. Sorry about that. The pictures sure show some "pretty" pieces!

[ryche_me 0]

Hey BORE The machine work has gotten alot better in the past couple of years. The ones i saw (about six or so) were all DROR or JLMG DROR hybrids. The fit and finnish were fantastic as was the price to own one. I have doubts as to any of them being original. As i said i would love to own the PAT.1 and 2 DROR's but i won't sell my house to get them. I have been buying parts from him to build my own PAT.2 DROR Hoping to pick up the mag housing this DEC. At that point i will be looking for a beater JOHNSON REC. to work with, if anyone knows of one laying around.

[ryche_me 0]

BRIAN On the sister site for the JLMG you put on some info about the barrel sleeve of the DROR. Do you know of any good books containing info on the DROR's? The info i have is spotty at best. Any help is always appreciated Thanks MARK

[Brian Alpert 0]

Mark, The only things I know about the Drors comes from Googling it and having a few 2nd model parts kits, and a bbl and bolt for the 303.

[ryche_me 0]

Ok thanks after that little gem about the barrel sleeve i wondered if you had a reference . If i ever find anything i'll send it your direction. :rolleyes:

[webmaster 0]

I once wrote to the Israeli Defence Attache down at the embassy in Washington DC. I received a nice letter back stating that all information regarding the Dror is still classified and would remain so for the foreseeable future!

[ryche_me 0]

WOW It was nice of them to respond at all. I wonder why all the secerecy over a system that is that old. I mean with the JOHNSON system all thats known is pretty much out in the open, or written about. I know the DROR system borrowed from alot of things ( JOHNSON, MG-34,etc.) but all those other systems have been thoughly written or talked about for years. Why would they keep it quiet when its not in service any more????? It makes one wonder!

[webmaster 0]

Surprisingly there is a lot of stuff in the US National archives that is still classified from the 1940's. I had to do a FOI request to get the Johnson Gatling gun trial report declassified from Top Secret in 2001!

[walt 0]

Guys,

I spent a little time looking at these here's what I came up with:

2099 has no info on it (rifle)

4969 received 1/23/41 was delivered1/30/42 (rifle)

0111 received unknown delivered 10/1/41 (rifle)

2503 received 12/5/41 delivered 12/9/41 (rifle)

No info on the A-prefixed receiver.

4162 shows up as a rifle serial number

Anyone know who Davless Guns X-22 is or was?

I can't believe these people are calling these prototypes.

The LMG receiver will say what it is. Model of 1941 was rifle only

The prototype I have has no markings at all neither did any of the ones I handled here in New England.

Someone is really going to be disappointed when he finds out what he bought.

walt

[ryche_me 0]

Hey guys Walt thanks for the info. I would love to have #4162 even knowing it used to be JSAR. Its a really nice example of a pat2 DROR.,but once again not at that price. as i mentioned earlier i will need a beater rec. to build mine. Its probably the closest thing i will ever have to an original. I just hope i can find someone to do the weld work almost as nice as his welder does. Did you notice the top of the rec. has been stamped 8mm semi-auto I really don't believe JOHNSON AUTOMATICS did that.

[ryche_me 0]

Now that i think about this at the SAR show he had a box full of cut up JSAR rec.'s but he put the price on the parts so high no one would buy them. Now several years later i think i know where they all went. The rec.'s had been cut in about 4 places with a band saw. ( nice and straight ) Doe's anyone know what welding process would put them back together? I believe we discussed once before that the blend of metal originally used made this very difficult. Has anyone had any luck doing this? i would like to know for future reference. Joseph : have you attempted this? if you would like pm me or on the forum i'm sure others would like to know. I need the info if i ever get this DROR project off the ground. THANKS to any with any info.

[rigunner 0]

So let me get this straight.These "prototypes "a just cut parts kits built up with semi recievers?They are not the prototypes that were sold a few years ago out of the Cody museum?Has anyone seen any of the Taft Pierce guns turn up?I think # 4 was sold by RI auctions.

[ryche_me 0]

Best guess at this point is some of the rec. have been welded back together. These prototypes are not real. They look good but thats about all.

[Brian Alpert 0]

The "prototypes" did not nearly meet their estimated prices at auction. The 8mm Dror look-a-like went for $4312.50 and the 303 went for $2875. Both of these prices included the 15% buyer's premium. The 41 LMG semi look-a-like went for $4600