Johnson M1941 rifle

[bigfifty 0]

Hello I am a new owner of a Johnson M1941. I acquired it in a purchase of several firearms fro the son of a gun collector. The man had a gun shop in California in pre-communist California days. He died many years back and his son inherited his collection and brought it to Alaska. This Johnson appears entirely original, parts and finish. The sling is the one that was on it when the gun was obtained in the late forties/early fifties.(as testified to by the son).

Looks like an old 03 sling with brass fittings. It has no weird markings, only those that appear to have been on it when manufactured. The bore is very good/excellent,probably because a gun guy owned it. Wood is very good, a couple of dings here and there. I have not shot it, but did put a primer only 30-06 in it and it did set it off. The firing pin spring seems kind of weak to me but I know absolutely nothing about Johnson's. The bolt holds back, the front sights and bayonet lug are there. I do not believe it to have ever been refinished, well not in my lifetime anyway.

I remember seeing these for sale for 75.00 when I was a kid. I thought they were pretty ugly then. I bought a model 1892 Winchester from the guy and he basically threw the Johnson in as a package deal. I have no real use for it as I am

a single shot and model 70 fan. I had no idea the Johnsons had become collectible. Is there anything a person can look for on these to indicate that the barrel or other parts have has been replaced etc.? I believe this one is "attic fresh" and has not been re-finished or monkeyed with. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks Sharps 50-140

[wwiifirearms 0]

I think the best thing to do is sell it to me

If you can post some pictures I am sure you will get lots of feedback. If you can't post pictures but can email them, you can send them to me at ray@wwiifirearms.com and I will post them for all to see.

If the serial number has no A or B prefix, just a number, there is a good chance the board admin has the records of how each part was numbered when it left the factory, so post the serial number here. (records of the later numbered guns have not been fount, see post on serial numbers for details). This would be the easiest way to tell if it is all original.

If you plan to sell it, post an asking price.

-wwiifirearms

[bigfifty 0]

I forgot to mention the serial number is B1960. Is there a way to find the manufacture date? I read somewhere that there were 60,000 made, other places 30,000. Did they all leave the country? I am pretty computer disfunctional but I can e-mail pictures.. I will get some and send them to you. Any special locations on the gun that should be photographed? Same guy has two m2 (Yes I said M2) carbines his grandpa brought back from WWII, and believe it or not an original McClellan saddle, with an original 30-40 Krag his grandfather used in Cuba in 1898. I was skeptical of the story until he showed me a photo of his Grandfather taken with the Roughriders, (including Teddy R.) signed by a bunch of the Riders and Teddy on the back! In Alaska, pretty strange. I have let him know I am interested if he decides to part with them. I will forward some pictures when I get them. I am working on the North Slope (Prudhoe Bay) until after New Years. Thanks and Merry CHRISTmas, Sharps 50-140

[wwiifirearms 0]

Few close shots of the markings and a few shots that show about 1/3 of the gun each are a good place to start.

If the m2 carbines were registered with the nfa they are worth even more than Johnson, if they weren't they are worth up to 10 years in a fed lock-up. If they are legal I'd definitely be interested and would pay a finders fee.

The RoughRider stuff would be a gold mine if he has good documentation.

-wwiifirearms

[bigfifty 0]

I'll check on the M2's. I will send pictures of the Johnson when I get back to civilisation. Just for info what can a person do to legalize "undocumented" nfa weapons? Thanks Sharps 50-140

[metrotps 0]

I'll check on the M2's. I will send pictures of the Johnson when I get back to civilisation. Just for info what can a person do to legalize "undocumented" nfa weapons? Thanks Sharps 50-140

Nothing. http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html#register-nfa

[wwiifirearms 0]

No legal full-auto could be registered for civilian ownership after May 19, 1986. The last time you could register an M1 carbine brought back from WWII or Korea was during the 1968 Amnesty registration which only lasted about 30 days. Some people have estimated that for every 10 that could have been registered in 1968 only 1 was.

If he says they are registered but he lost the paperwork, he can probably get copies from the ATF, but don't take the chance and try buying them without all the right paperwork and following the correct procedures for transferring the registration. Even if he is telling the truth, if the ATF can't find it on the register, which happens, you have problems.

Remember that unlike most machine-guns it isn't just the receiver of an M2 that is contraband. The fire control parts alone are contraband because they fit into any M1 carbine.

Sad to say these important historical items have a grim future. They will either remain contraband and someday get someone sent to prison for trying to preserve their history, or they will be turned over to the ATF to be destroyed. There might be a slim chance you could get a military owned museum(like the Air Force museum at Wright Patterson, or the Patten Museum at Fort Knox) to take them as a donation.

Let's just hope the owner says " Well the only paperwork I have is form with a funny looking $200 postage stamp on it" ( if amnesty registered I am not sure if it will actually have the stamp, but would still have the form)

-wwiifirearms

[ryche_me 0]

True not all of the 68 forms have stamps on them, but it is stated on the form. I don't think the fire control parts are considered contraband.

I have seen various bits and pieces for sale. They are not supposed to fit without the rec. having work done to it that makes it a fullauto.

Anyway Wii is right you need yo find that paper work, or hide them away verry well, and wait. You could disassemble them, Destroy the recs.and sell the stocks barrels bolts etc. Its a shame but its what it is. There has been talk of another amnesty for several years, There are some great problems in the NFA world that could be easily addressed with an amnesty. Plus it would bring the prices back down to something close to normal.

The dealers might actually start getting good business again. Good luck either way. Ryche

[wwiifirearms 0]

The carbine fire control parts are specifically called out as contraband if you have ALL seven (I think it is seven) that are needed to make an M1 full auto. People can have and sell any of the parts, they just can't have ALL of the parts.

An m1 receiver does not require any modification to install M2 parts, which is why they are different than most guns.

There is an ATF ruling specifically on the M1/M2 carbine parts.

Page 12 of the following document:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf

-wwiifirearms

[bigfifty 0]

The carbine fire control parts are specifically called out as contraband if you have ALL seven (I think it is seven) that are needed to make an M1 full auto. People can have and sell any of the parts, they just can't have ALL of the parts.

An m1 receiver does not require any modification to install M2 parts, which is why they are different than most guns.

There is an ATF ruling specifically on the M1/M2 carbine parts.

Page 12 of the following document:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf

-wwiifirearms

If the M1 and M2 receivers have no differences, then why would the receiver need to be destroyed? I thinks almost all M2s were actually built on M1 receivers. Am I correct? I've been told that most of the "M2s" were actually M1s that were converted in the field or theatre of war. Basically an M1 with M2 trigger group is just an M1 if the trigger group is removed and not held in proximity of the M1, I.E. the M1 receiver ( or M2 marked receiver) is rendered harmless and not subject to NFA. Is this correct. Thanks for the help

[M48TANKER 0]

I'm no authority, but I believe that in the case of the M2 carbine the old addage of "once a machine gun..always a machine gun" might apply to the receiver. The BATFE has tried to define which parts make a "machine gun" contraband. Usually they pick some part, like the receiver itself. In some cases like the M2 carbine and the AR-15, the mere possession of a complete set of full auto parts, in combination with the possession in near proximity of one of the above receivers, can be construed as "constructive possession of a NFA firearm". Supposedly it's just too easy to convert these into NFA firearms. It's been argued for years which full auto parts of an AR-15 can be used, or possessed, in combination with a semi auto firearm. The BATFE has been changing the rules every once in a while. Now I hear that you can use a "full auto" bolt carrier in a semi-auto AR-15, since Colt used to put some FA parts in factory assembled semi ARs. The M2 Carbine receiver, if it is marked "M2"...might IMHO fall into the catagory of "once..always". Someone please correct me if I'm wrong so I can kick myself in the butt for passing on a perfect all matching semi auto "Rockola" carbine that was "overstamped" with a "2" over the "1" in "M1". On guns like the 1919A4, the MaDeuce (50 caliber belt fed), the Maxim, and other "plate" machineguns...the Right Sideplate has been denoted as the controlled part. You can own all the parts except the Right sideplate if it's made to the specs of the original full auto configuration. (OK...on the Maxim they've changed their minds several times as to whether it's the right or left sideplate or both)

On other firearms like the Sten, M3 and M3A1 Grease Gun, Soumi, and a plethora of other "tube" guns, the rule seems to be that you shouldn't have the original diameter of the tube (which would allow the full auto bolt to be inserted). So.....various methods have been accepted, such as FA bolt blocking mechanisms and reduced diameter bolts and tubes, make it possible to assemble a semi-auto tube gun. It's a tricky, grey, and ever changing arena which makes it difficult to stay in compliance without constant study.

[emmagee1917 0]

Twice won't let me post.

Chris

Well , maybe third times charm.

As I said , twice now , there are three ways to have a M2 by US law , and none of them require the ability to fuction in full auto in this case.

One...to have a reciever marked M2 or Overstamped M2 over the M1. This is proof that the gun once was a MG and it now falls in the once...always rule group. If unregestered it will be taken. The semi-auto parts may be kept. No other FA parts need to be present for a violation.

Two...to have a M1 carbine with all the FA parts , or at least " the seven". Having the other four needed parts or being able to function in full auto is not required. If registered it falls into the once...always group. If not , strip the FA parts out and get rid of them. Rebuild as a semi and tell noone.

Three...to have the seven parts. These are 1) the selector lever , 2) the 9-spring , 3) rocker assmly ( two pieces rivited together ) , 4) the M2 hammer , and 5) the disconnector with it's 6) spring and 7) plunger/cup. These 7 parts make a MG. No other parts need to be present for a violation.

Now , even though you'll need a M2 sear , triggerguard , slide , and stock to make a conversion , they are not part of the kit.

HTH , Chris

[M48TANKER 0]

Thanks Chris...you've confirmed my understanding that the REALLY nice all matching semi-auto Rockola that I passed on (for $600.00) was contraband, by virtue of the M2 receiver having had a "1" overstamped over the "2". Once/Always. Glad I passed on it. It was at a gunshow and I'm glad I don't know the seller or remember his booth. It's been nearly 15 years ago anyway. When I was an O3/07 SOT, I once bought a nice FORM-4 registered M2 carbine. It sure was fun to shoot but it didn't last long in stock! It sold quickly. There is not much to watch out for in the 1941 Johnson JSAR. If you ever do have a double-tap at the range ...stop shooting immediately, disassembly the rifle as far as convenient, because there is something wrong with the mechanism. Some of the other collectors on the board can explain why this can happen and how to fix it. I sure do admire the semi-auto Johnson LMGs though. I think I'm starting to lean in that direction...but it's a long stretch on the financial end. Note: I think I just remembered what can happen. If your recoil spring is weak, it could result in the rifle firing the first shot, extracting the spent round and returning just enough to pick up another round, but not cocking the hammer and engaging the sear hook. Then the hammer follows the bolt home and might have enough inertia to slam-fire another round.

[metrotps 0]

Here in the " Everwet State " Washington, if you possess only a part of an NFA weapon you could be charged. A good friend knows an officer in a big drug task force unit. If they bust somebody and find say an M2 stock on a semi-auto M1, that person is charged under Washington State law with possession of a restricted weapon and faces 10 years in prison on top of the drug charges.

[bigfifty 0]

Twice won't let me post.

Chris

Well , maybe third times charm.

As I said , twice now , there are three ways to have a M2 by US law , and none of them require the ability to fuction in full auto in this case.

One...to have a reciever marked M2 or Overstamped M2 over the M1. This is proof that the gun once was a MG and it now falls in the once...always rule group. If unregestered it will be taken. The semi-auto parts may be kept. No other FA parts need to be present for a violation.

Two...to have a M1 carbine with all the FA parts , or at least " the seven". Having the other four needed parts or being able to function in full auto is not required. If registered it falls into the once...always group. If not , strip the FA parts out and get rid of them. Rebuild as a semi and tell noone.

Three...to have the seven parts. These are 1) the selector lever , 2) the 9-spring , 3) rocker assmly ( two pieces rivited together ) , 4) the M2 hammer , and 5) the disconnector with it's 6) spring and 7) plunger/cup. These 7 parts make a MG. No other parts need to be present for a violation.

Now , even though you'll need a M2 sear , triggerguard , slide , and stock to make a conversion , they are not part of the kit.

HTH , Chris

Thanks, These rifles are marked M1 but were converted in the field to M2s. They were brought back by the father of the possessor. He was a special forces officer early in Nam and was able to by-pass "customs" coming home. So in this case if the NFA parts (trigger group)are abated, disposed of you have regular M1's?

[wwiifirearms 0]

Practically speaking, if they are marked M1 only and don't have any full auto parts, they are a legal M1. Unless someone has a time machine to go determine if they ever had Full Auto parts I think it would be hard to apply the 'once a machine gun, always a machine gun rule".

Technically, once a machine gun always a machine gun.

I would not buy them and remove the FA parts. On the other hand, hypothetically, if you were offered an M1 carbine that was missing a few parts you wouldn't have any reason to think it was once a machine gun.

-wwiifirearms

Ps- it is not the trigger group that is a problem. Look at the link in my earlier post for pictures of "the seven" parts you don't want to see.

[bigfifty 0]

Practically speaking, if they are marked M1 only and don't have any full auto parts, they are a legal M1. Unless someone has a time machine to go determine if they ever had Full Auto parts I think it would be hard to apply the 'once a machine gun, always a machine gun rule".

Technically, once a machine gun always a machine gun.

I would not buy them and remove the FA parts. On the other hand, hypothetically, if you were offered an M1 carbine that was missing a few parts you wouldn't have any reason to think it was once a machine gun.

-wwiifirearms

Ps- it is not the trigger group that is a problem. Look at the link in my earlier post for pictures of "the seven" parts you don't want to see.

Thanks for all your information. You have been extremely helpful in clarifying this for me. Sharps 50-140

[cdj7097 0]

Thanks for all your information. You have been extremely helpful in clarifying this for me. Sharps 50-140

If you have an M1 carbine with an M2 parts kit simply remove the parts send them ATF or destroy them. An M1 is perfectly legal to own as long as the receiver is marked M1. If it is marked M2 remove all the legal parts and send the receiver and M2 parts to ATF or destroy it along with the offending M2 parts which DO NOT include the slide, trigger housing or sear.

[wwiifirearms 0]

Back on topic. Here are some pics:

-wwiifirearms

[bigfifty 0]

I have looked on GunBroker etc and could not find another Johnson that had not been modified or re-finshed in some manner. Prices are from 4,000 to 8,000 and they are chopped off or some kind of "sporterized" version. This one is purely as issued, no re-do, chopped stock,removed parts etc. It seems as if a lot of the Johnsons were messed with, or sporterized. Is there a market for those? I noticed these examples do not seemto be selling either. I sent more pictures of the Johnson I acquired, they are on page 2 of this posting. Sharps 50-140

[bigfifty 0]

I am attempting to figure out how to put photos here.

[wwiifirearms 0]

I have looked on GunBroker etc and could not find another Johnson that had not been modified or re-finshed in some manner. Prices are from 4,000 to 8,000 and they are chopped off or some kind of "sporterized" version. This one is purely as issued, no re-do, chopped stock,removed parts etc. It seems as if a lot of the Johnsons were messed with, or sporterized. Is there a market for those? I noticed these examples do not seemto be selling either. I sent more pictures of the Johnson I acquired, they are on page 2 of this posting. Sharps 50-140

Many of the guns on gunbroker have been running over and over for months, I think they are fishing for someone that doesn't really know what they are buying. At at recent Ohio Gun Collectors Association show a guy tried all day to get $4000 for a very nice, unmodified Johnson and had no takers. He walked it around to the collectors at all 700 tables. He eventually lowered his price and sold it at the end of the day. It might have brought $4000 in a good auction, but after taxes, fees, and buyer premium he would have taken home closer to $2500-$2700 A few years ago I was seeing $5000+ prices at auctions, but I think the economy has cooled that off. Just what I am seeing in my area, others may have a different perspective.

-wwiifirearms

[Brian Alpert 0]

As noted, this is a good time to buy but a tough time to sell. I know as I deal in these....as a hobby, of course. Before the economy took a dive, run of the mill, original configuration JSARs brought 4 to 5 thousand at the big shows with real nice 95% (investment grade) rifles going for up to 6 thousand. The record at auction was near 9 thousand. Now there are no takers unless the price is ridiculous or the rifle is something special. The same rifles are listed on the auction sites over and over with no bids or never making the reserve.