Going to have alook at a Johnson, could use some help

[Bubakles 0]

Hi guys!

I already own one Johnson 1941, but I ran across one that would be REALLY reasonably priced and I am going to look at it tomorrow. I am not very well versed in Johnsons, so I am asking: Any tell-tale signs to look for when going over the rifle? I know the basics: barrel markings, barrel condition, general condition etc. But what are the most usual replacements made to these rifles? I know rear sights are sometimes replaced by repro parts, but what else should I look out for? I ordered the Johnson book by Bruce Canfield but haven't received it yet.

Thank you in advance!

[wwiifirearms 0]

1. The finish and markings: this may tell you if it has been refinished. The original finish is thin, so I would be cautious if parkerizing is heavy. Markings including Cranston arms should be easy to read, not buffed out.

2. Front sight and bayo lug: look at the pins on a good one and compare to see if they show signs of being messed with.

3. Stock: should not be too smooth or too small, which would indicate sanding. Originals may show rough sanding marks that are cross grain because of how they were made.

4. Consistency: is the condition consistent on all parts? Example: if the stock is beat but the metal is perfect, suspect the metal was redone.

5. Barrel ring( or whatever it is called) : usually marked 30-06 and 41 on an original 30-06

That's all I can think of right now.

Good luck.

-wwiifirearms

[Bubakles 0]

Perfect, thank you! Now I feel ready for this

[Joseph Scott 0]

The most common replaced item is the barrel. Most have been made from M1 Garand barrels, unmarked, and will have a small groove about 1/2" long on the shoulder of chamber. Original barrels are marked and you can see the sanding marks on the metal. The magazine and rear sight are different metals and look different than receiver. Some are blued, some parked, and some even painted, but all have a smooth finish. If the front sight or bayonet lug have been off, there is usually a small ring around the pins where they have been punched out. The large head screws holding on the wood were blued. Parts I made are matte finished, parked and larger parts such as sights, lugs, wood, etc are marked "JS". Many are missing the bolt catch. Bolt is polished and operating handle black. Not all original stocks have the "cheeks", some early ones were solid. Look for the little metal retainer that holds the front pin in place. Many are broken off. Ask if the gun has been fired lately, if not it is possible that the chamber may be lightly pitted and gun will not cycle properly. You can't see this and must test fire gun to know. Look for screw holes under the rear sight where a scope may have been mounted and removed/replaced. Good luck.

[Bubakles 0]

Thank you Mr Scott for the help. I ended up getting the rifle. To my joy it was a rather early one, serial 0219 without prefix. Unfortunately the bore is bluntly put BAD. I was able to haggle the price down a bit so I do not feel too terrible.

The stock is indeed missing the "wings" you mentioned. Otherwise the rifle checks out, the finish is worn but has a nice patina to it and has definately not been refinsihed. I will try to get some pics of the rifle on the weekend. Maybe even a "group" photo of my "massive" Johnson collection

(The rifle is missing two parts though; the clipy thing that holds the firing pin and the front retainer pin I think it's called, the one that is forward of the drum magazine)

[Joseph Scott 0]

If you are referring to the clip in the middle of the firing pin which holds the return spring, it is very dangerous to fire without that. The firing pin can move forward on bolt closure, "slam" fire the round, and run away. I don't have any of the clips and spring but do have complete firing pins. Currently I am not making the front pin retainer due to eye problems.

[Bubakles 0]

Thanks for the heads up on the missing part! I might try to hunt down one of those but it will be impossible I fear due to me living in the EU and these rifles are super rare here, even more so than in the US...

So there is really nothing that can be done. No problem, the rifle is not for shooting anyways

[Bubakles 0]

I intend to get pictures up this weekend, but I have a few questions regarding my new rifle.

First: Were there different kinds of rear sights? My Johnson #0219 has dashes or lines between the range-numbers, ie 2-3-4-5, while my #B3885 doesn't have the lines, ie 3 4 5. I have tried searching for pictures of rear sights but all seem to be of the latter version. Any input?

Second: Like I wrote the firing pin stop assy is missing on my new rifle, ie the firing pin is not locked in place by the clip. I tried switching the clip from my other Johnson but it seemed like the clip was way too thick?! I couldn't even get the bolt assembled because the clip made the rear part of the bolt too thick to even fit inside the bolt. It almost seems the bolt on the guns have different specs for the bolt/bolt assembly. In my other Johnson the bolt with the firing pin clip works fine. I can get pictures of this to display this.

I am about to order some parts from Numrich, who luckily delivers abroad, but they seem to be all out of those firing pin clips. I do need a new mainspring for my "first" Johnson, and I thought I'd get a small set of spares in the same order.

Thank you gentlemen in advance, hope to hear your input on these issues. I will get some hi-res pictures up during the weekend.

[ArtR 0]

When you get your Canfield book, make sure that you pay special attention to the section on Serial Numbers. While your rifle has a low number, it has nothing to do with the order of manufacture. That is to say, a "B" prefixed number could have been manufactured before a "no prefix".

[Bubakles 0]

I snapped some pics (had to post in multiple posts, sorry), hope you like them

The serials are 0219 and B3885, and there are some interesting differencies in them, like the magazine-assembly and the difference in barrel markings. I am still waiting for Mr Postman to bring me my reference book, I'm sure some issues are covered in it so please bear with me. I'll more than happily answer any quesitons or give more info if you are interested. I would LOVE to hear any/all input, also if something doesn't look right on either rifle. I bought both at very good prices so I won't feel bad.

B3885 top, 0219 bottom

B3885 top, 0219 bottom

0219 left, B3885 right. 0219 is missing the "wings" while B3885 has them.

0219 left, B3885 right

Other than the rotary magazine the heat shield is my favourite feature of the Johnson

Locking cam units (?); B3885 top, 0219 bottom. Very different fonts but same prefix, what's up with that?

0219 on the right looking very worn, even a bit rusty. WIll have to oil it.

That's all for now. Thanks for watching!

[Bubakles 0]

Cont

Barrel markings, B3885 top 0219 bottom

Different markings, B3885 top, 0219 bottom

Crude weldings on B3885 (bottom)

Minor difference, rear pin hole is different. B3885 top, 0219 bottom

Very interesting, major difference in magazine assemblies. 0219 left, magazine serial 6707. B3885 has mag serial E1010.

Like I mentioned, there are differences in rear sight markings, 0219 bottom B3885 top.

[ArtR 0]

Great photos, for comparison. I bet Joe Scott will add some comments.

[Joseph Scott 0]

I have not seen the rear sight with the dashes before, but have seen the different size numbers on bolt parts. I think your mag door springs are non-original replacements. The rear pin hole differences are just due do normal machining variances. The center guide collars are not welded, that is remains of forging flash that was not as well ground off. Remember they were a new company with new employees, not with years of experience. I have seen stocks with the "cheeks" missing. I was told many years ago the either a glue batch was bad or the wood was not dried completely. Only a verbal comment that I remember hearing. They can be replaced with new pieces if you want to make them and hand file to shape after glueing on. Overall, they look pretty good. How are the bores?

[TomW 0]

My earliest Johnson(#0901) was out and available, so I checked the Rear Sight Elevator. YES- it does have the dash between the numbers, same as your early #0219.

Decided to check out the safe for the A # and another early # no letter one. The A # did not have the dashes between the letters. The other early one, did not either have the dashes, which is not surprising, because I bought another original sight & rear sight elevator on e-Bay, and replaced the old ones.

I also checked out two more additional rear sight elevator's in my spare parts. Neither one has the dashes between the numbers!

It would appear with the information that we have to date, that early # Johnson Rifles, may have had original rear sight elevator's, with dashes between numbers.

Bubakles- Have you asked a moderator yet, to check out your early #0219 serial number, against the master list of no letter serial #s? They can probably give you all or the majority of the serial #s of the parts in your Johnson Rifle.

Also if I understand you correctly- The Firing Pin Stop from your #B rifle does not fit your #0219 rifle. Does the Firing Pin Stop have a small clip(firing pin stop retainer clip) riveted-pinned into the tunnel? This clip, slips-clips over the firing pin. Not all Firing Pin Stops have this small clip. I think the earliest ones did not have the small clip and could drop out and become lost, if a person was not careful during assembly-disassembly procedure. As I recall, my early serial # rifle, does not have this small clip, that holds it to the firing pin. I only learned of this variation when I observed it on later subsequent rifles. There may be enough slight variations in your early rifles firing pin & locking cam unit that a Firing Pin Stop with a Retainer Clip will not work. You may need a plain Firing Pin Stop. Have you asked Joseph Scott if he has one or can fabricate one for you?

Also as a matter of interest- Numrich now offers a replacement Firing Pin Stop Retainer Clip for $5.95. If an individual breaks their clip, this replacement can be pinned to the old Firing Pin Stop. Yes I was sucker enough to purchase one to satisfy my curiosity.

[Bubakles 0]

Wow, thanks for the comments! Too bad about the replacement parts on the mag-door. The bores on both are bad, unfortunately. I guess previous owners really liked shooting the rifles. There is some minor pitting, and the rifling is really worn. I do not intend to shoot these much, if at all

[Bubakles 0]

Thanks you TomW for the input! Very interesting about the dashes!

No, I have not asked aboit the parts, as that part of the forum is closed; I can't start a new topic there. I did write down all numbera I could find so I would love a list of what the numbers should be!

And yes, the clip issue is exactly like you describe; the B# clip clips on to the firing pin with a clip, which makes the "rear bolt part" too thick to fit into the "front bolt part" of 0219. I looked at numrich parts but it says the part is out of stock. I will try to get the parts from them; I need a rear cross pin as well.

Thank you!

[TomW 0]

Yes it does indicate that it is pinned, but the 2-3 moderators who have copies of the master log of no letter serial #s, are more that willing, as they have time, to give you the serial #s of the parts of your Johnson Rifle.

You should start a new letter-request to the message board, asking for all information on Johnson Rifle serial # 0219.

This will get their attention and it will stand out better, rather than being buried in your last message.

[WWIInut 0]

Bubakles,

Reading your post got me wondering and I checked my no prefix #2803, it too has dashes on rear sight.

As a side note, how did you get your pics to show up so nice and large? I have not been able to figure out how to download them properly in this board yet. Thank you.

[Bubakles 0]

Bubakles,

Reading your post got me wondering and I checked my no prefix #2803, it too has dashes on rear sight.

As a side note, how did you get your pics to show up so nice and large? I have not been able to figure out how to download them properly in this board yet. Thank you.

That is interesting about the dashes. Are we seeing a pattern here?

And regarding the pics: I use an image-host, to which I link the pictures. Ie I upload the picture to the (free) host, and get links to them which I embed with tags ( link to the picture and end the link with [ /*img] but remove the *)

[Brian Alpert 0]

Here is the data on JSAR 0219:

Received from Cranston Arms unlisted

Stock # unlisted

BBL #852E

Hammer Block #0378

Hammer #0632

Bolt #350

Locking Cam #258

Firing pin #0102

Extractor #609

Magazine #0933

Transferred to N.P.C. 9/29/41

You have a prewar which could have actually made it to the Dutch East Indies

[dash 0]

Great pics!! That's what I love about collecting firearms...Even the same make can have have small variations.

If no one here has spares mag door springs, I found some at esarcoinc Bubakles.

[Bubakles 0]

Here is the data on JSAR 0219:

Received from Cranston Arms unlisted

Stock # unlisted

BBL #852E

Hammer Block #0378

Hammer #0632

Bolt #350

Locking Cam #258

Firing pin #0102

Extractor #609

Magazine #0933

Transferred to N.P.C. 9/29/41

You have a prewar which could have actually made it to the Dutch East Indies

Thank you for this!

Unfortunately none of the parts match, but I guess that's no biggie.

[Bubakles 0]

That is interesting about the dashes. Are we seeing a pattern here?

FYI I visited an aquaintance who has 4 Johnsons and one Johnson MG, and interestingly enough his no-prefix Johnson also has the dashes on the rear sight. All prefix ones are missing the dashes. Anyone else want to check their no-prefix rifles for these?

[walt 0]

Guys,

I know I'm late in posting this. I've been away from the board for quite a spell. Seems all I've been doing is working. Awhile ago I did a section on what to look for on Johnsons and their Bayonets this was on the main johnson site. Not sure whether or not it's still there but if it is give it an eyeball. I know it needs to be updated cause I come across a couple of new rifles. I did manage to come up with some interesting Johnson items which I'll post when time permits. Things are starting to slow down here and maybe I'll get back to working days. I do see a light at the end of this tunnel and fortunetly I'm fairly certain it's not the train.

walt