Johnson/DROR

[cushmancomp 0]

Before you guys roast me on here let me say I have collected alot of rebuilt semi auto demilled 20th century machine guns and have alot of the more common stuff like 1919, Bren, Mg3, Vickers, DP 28 and come across this gun as you see. I bought it and it will be here this week to add to my collection. These are new to me and i had done the normal research online before making the purchase, but there's nothing like hearing from all the experts with hands on experience. I would love to hear what you guys have to say about this gun, the good and the bad as I can take it. Any ideas who may have built it?   Been told its been in a collection for at least 30 years but who really knows for sure since that collectors no longer with us. I will take some better pics myself this week.

 

Thanks for the input and comments in advance

 

Thanks, Jay

[Rarecat 0]

No roasting from me, only envy.... beautiful piece

[ryche_me 0]

No roasting here either. Beautiful and interesting rifles. If you ever saw Ian's video on the DROR, that one is mine.

I am visible during the slo mo section as he was running the camera.

Beautiful piece, not many people have a functioning one

Ryche

Any idea who built it??

[cushmancomp 0]

I have very little knowledge about the history of this gun before I found it except was told it was in a collection for at least 20 years. Theres limited info online about these being demilled and/or converted to semi auto. So i was hoping the experts on here would give some input. I think the 8mm script was added to the johnson receiver so it wasnt done in the back yard 25 years ago when laser engraving was much more difficult.  I did watch Ians videos before purchasing this gun.  Thats all the info I have and it will be here tomm so i can take better pics in detail if anybody wants to see anything special.  I did buy a spare barrell of GB while they are available.

[matconcrete 0]

I have seen very few of these but the font doesn’t look like jsar font, maybe it is a dror reciever? I have no idea how sn run with these. Very nice example though.

Phil

[ArtR 0]

As I told OP, a JSAR rifle with SN 2179 left the Johnson Automatics factory 12/03/1941 as a standard JSAR in  .30-06. As I have no knowledge as to  what, where, and when happened when this DROR was assembled, I cannot attest as to how or what possessed them to use SN 2179. I find it both confusing and deceptive to 'remark' the receiver as they have done, which  in fact implies this rifle was  assembled and manufactured  by Johnson Automatics in Providence, R.I. While photos do not prove it, I did not see any of the standard Johnson patent or trademarks registrations. Others may want to chime in, but I would tend to leave further discussion regarding this to others more qualified in such matters.

[cushmancomp 0]

I too thought it was interesting that the Johnson receiver appeared to be remarked 8mm and also noticed the lack of patent markings just adds to my confusion. Who 25-30 years ago in this part of the gun building business had the capabilities  to remark the receiver let alone the interest in doing so?  What do you all think about the lack of all the normal patent stampings ?  As far as I am reading online their wasnt much connection between Cranston RI and the building of these DRORs in Isreal. We all know anybody could have stamped the 2179 on the lower beside the Isreali markings but does the 2179 on top look like a factory stamping?

 

Once again thanks for the input

[ArtR 0]

IMHO, those markings are neither a stamping nor a roll mark, which the originals definitely are.. They are engraved. And, to cap it off, the city of Providence is misspelled. As they say. The Devil is in the details. You be the judge.

I am sorry, but I kept waiting for someone else to notice that minor detail, and I just could not wait any longer, It kept slapping me in the face each and every time I looked at the image.

ArtR

[cushmancomp 0]

I agree with all of that but still looking for more info on who, what and where.   Not really figuring out why somebody would go to all the effort to stamp or engrave that info on the receiver to begin with as it doesnt really go along with the plan to rebuild or recreate an Isreali DROR at least as far as I understand.  NO matter what its a super cool and rare gun that fits my collection perfectly.

[ArtR 0]

Jay, absolutely no doubt. A cool gun to have and definitely a show stopper at the range. If it shoots half as well as it looks, it will be unbeatable.Enjoy for sure.

[ryche_me 0]

Ok so here is what i know...

Mine was built by the same guy that built Brians.  There was at the time we are talking about, an outfit called surf city firearms.

They were the ones building JLMG/DROR hybrids and passing them off at RIA as Johnson prototypes. They were called out on this but as far as i know never shut down for it. They also had most of the USMC marked 1911's (also bogus). I do know at the time the owner had a box full of JSAR recs. that had been cut into 3 pieces.

Their work was very good and the items tended to sell at high prices. I had spoken with the builder at one time about building mine.

I vaguely remember them being marked in what caliber they were built in, ala the 8 mm marking. I don't ever remember seeing their name stamped on the few items i saw in person.

So its a very good possibility that this piece is one of theirs.

I would look very closely inside and out to try and spot weld lines in the rec. If they marked them it might be on the bottom somewhere.

I also believe they are long since out of business. The owner at that time attempted to be a member here with alot of parts for sale (lord knows i bought enough from him) But he had very few posts before he disappeared from the site.

Art you may be able to look up his user name from the early 2000's

I can give you his 1st name, if needed ,don't remember his last name at the moment. There were also a few threads at the time discussing his work.

I acquired Brians DROR type 1 mags from him at a SAR show years ago .

If memory kicks back in i will supply what i can think of then.

He was the primary builder at the time, most other builders had not attempted , or even knew about the DROR back then.

Ryche

 

[ArtR 0]

Ryche, thanks for the info.

For those interested, you can  type " DROR plus a space" in the search field and get just over 7 pages of posts related to DROR's  dated since 2005. I am not sure if Ryche-me's referenced member is in the list, but it might be a place to start.

 

[cushmancomp 0]

4 hours ago, ryche_me said:

Ok so here is what i know...

Mine was built by the same guy that built Brians.  There was at the time we are talking about, an outfit called surf city firearms.

They were the ones building JLMG/DROR hybrids and passing them off at RIA as Johnson prototypes. They were called out on this but as far as i know never shut down for it. They also had most of the USMC marked 1911's (also bogus). I do know at the time the owner had a box full of JSAR recs. that had been cut into 3 pieces.

Their work was very good and the items tended to sell at high prices. I had spoken with the builder at one time about building mine.

I vaguely remember them being marked in what caliber they were built in, ala the 8 mm marking. I don't ever remember seeing their name stamped on the few items i saw in person.

So its a very good possibility that this piece is one of theirs.

I would look very closely inside and out to try and spot weld lines in the rec. If they marked them it might be on the bottom somewhere.

I also believe they are long since out of business. The owner at that time attempted to be a member here with alot of parts for sale (lord knows i bought enough from him) But he had very few posts before he disappeared from the site.

Art you may be able to look up his user name from the early 2000's

I can give you his 1st name, if needed ,don't remember his last name at the moment. There were also a few threads at the time discussing his work.

I acquired Brians DROR type 1 mags from him at a SAR show years ago .

If memory kicks back in i will supply what i can think of then.

He was the primary builder at the time, most other builders had not attempted , or even knew about the DROR back then.

Ryche

 

I believe this receiver was welded, but will let you know for sure.  Man does that story kinda fit all the details of this gun that we know for sure. Thanks so much for sharing.  I knew somebody on here would have more insight to this gun. As so often happens when old collectors die off, we loose the story and only the gun remains.

[Rarecat 0]

For comparison, here are pics of my DROR Trigger group and the serial numbers on it....

[matconcrete 0]

I knew something was off but I missed it, Art I’m sending you another $64,000 check.

[ArtR 0]

17 hours ago, matconcrete said:

I knew something was off but I missed it, Art I’m sending you another $64,000 check.

Are there any lawyer types out there? Could any of these be considered promissory notes that I could ultimately collect on? Or at least get Phil to sign over his first born or most highly prized possession in his man cave? Hee hee...

 

[matconcrete 0]

I can send over my firstborn for starters, he is very clever with diagnostics of heavy equipment, but good luck getting him to cleanup after himself, and keeping him from choking his coworkers when he is in one of his moods.

[ArtR 0]

Proven method for getting siblings/offspring who work for you to clean up after themselves: Your paycheck? Hmmm. Had it with me, but I think I may have left it in the shop. Maybe if you clean up and put all tools away, you will find it.

[matconcrete 0]

Good idea, Money is a universal motivator. 💵

[BBBQ 0]

On 1/10/2024 at 5:10 PM, ArtR said:

the city of Providence is misspelled.

 well I was convinced! Still surprised by the risks people have taken in the Johnson universe. It instantly reminded me of something I saw in China in 2008

 

[ryche_me 0]

Cush: i didn't want to get inflammatory about the guy , due to doing a lot of business with him back then (... as is... you would find me under his table going through boxes of greasy parts where no one could see me, ... really sitting on the floor under his table with a box of greasy parts and some paper towels

But what they were doing , i didn't feel was correct for the community. If you are anywhere near Arizona i would like to take a look and compare our two pieces.

Brian and I had several conversations about the company and their business around that time.

Do you have any knowledge if your piece was originally sold at an RIA auction when the last owner got it?

Even if it is theirs, I think it would be a very nice and functional piece . The quality of the work was always very high and that's why they commanded the prices seen at that time for something that didn't ever exist ( IE the prototypes) Yours did exist and is what appears to be a very nice piece.

Whenever I take mine out, I always get comments like WHAT the F***k is that and Did those really Exist???

The answer is always YES they did ...

I talked with an IDF armorer several years ago who had nothing nice to say about " That Hagenah piece of Sh***T. He was very unhappy when the guys took them apart and lost small parts. He told me that he started tack welding them together to keep that from happening. Explains alot of weld markings on the older kits.

In my humble opinion... NO one is that passionate about that weapon unless you are trying to build one or are stuck working on one that has been issued and broken in the field. He didn't have much nice to say about the "POS"  M-16 that we gave them as well 

I am looking forward to seeing good close up pics of this when you get it in hand. The serial was probably copied from the mag housing or possibly the other way around. The number on the mag housing looks to be original. I think Art already looked up the Johnson serial number, but that may not be the correct original number to the receiver parts.

Either way I'm looking forward to talking with you about it. I think I had the 1st functional one in Arizona till Ian got his built. I like to believe so anyway.

Ryche

[ryche_me 0]

Rarecat: Do you have a functional one or are you still working on a Kit??

Your grip unit seems to have slightly different markings than mine... HHHMMM

Enquiring minds want to know

Ryche

[Rarecat 0]

Ryche, I am not building one, I'm just the type of guy that buys rare parts when I find them.  I found this for sale "as is" on APEX last year.  I was trying to get my 1941 lower completed when I came across it.  I also bought a DROR .303 mag well also without a clue what I was going to do with it.  APEX still has some DROR barrels listed...