Johnson sling?

[Bob Walker 0]

Is anyone familiar with these? I did not know that there was a special sling for the Johnson.

http://cgi.ebay.com/US-WW2-USMC-M1941-JOHN...1QQcmdZViewItem

[webmaster 0]

The issued sling for the Johnson SAR is of a Dutch design which utilises a brass button at the rear swivel end. I know Bruce Canfield has one for sure, and there are others around. They look distinctly different from this sling and are easily recognisable.

This one is not anything special, just a regular U.S. 1907 pattern sling, which could be used on a JSAR if issued for that reason.

I can't see the connection between the maker or Inspector's mark "JF" on the sling and Johnson Automatics which is always "JA".

So, if someone pays the $500 for the sling, make sure the story that goes with it is worth it!!! Other than that it's a nice WW2 era M1 or '03 Springfield sling.

Here's a page about 1907 pattern slings and maker/Inspector marks on them. JF doesn't appear but the page says it is not inclusive.

M1907 slings

[Bruce Canfield 0]

Jim is correct. The Johnson rifles had a special leather sling with a brass button at one end and a leather thong at the other. It is probable that some of the relatively few rifles acquired by the Marine parachute units were subsequently fitted with issue M1907 slings to replace the original Dutch-contract slings due to wear or damage. Other than the unique slings that were on the rifles when they left the factory, there is no such thing as a special "Johnson rifle sling" and this certainly includes the sling currently being auctioned. Anyone who pays a premium for the sling in question because of the accompanying story is going to be sorely disappointed.

[ArtR 0]

I sent an email to the seller asking what, if any, provenance he has for this sling. Also suggested that the $500 was a bit much for a standard 1907 sling. Will let you know what if anything I hear.

ArtR

[Matt K. 0]

Sling is up to $280. 10 hours left, but since there are knuckleheads (my apologies to any "knucklehead who may be reading this) who have bid on it, I am guessing it isn't done yet.

BTW, I have several of these "Johnson" slings if anybody is interested!

[rongee 0]

Well, here we go. Notice that eBay has instituted a new bidder ID policy, and it seems to apply intermittently on the militaria auctions I pulled up. May be based upon dollar value. You can no longer view competing bidders ID's, therefore preventing any communication with them regarding bogus items that they may be bidding on. EBay states that it is to prevent buyers from being offered fake items, but the real objective is to prevent buyer interference which is forbidden by eBay policy, or allowing other sellers to contact bidders with the offer of similar items. We'll see how this works out.

[Brian Alpert 0]

Wow, bidding ended at $301 and didn't make the reserve! The seller must really believe he has something there.

[ArtR 0]

It might be interesting to note that I have not received any communication from the seller, one way or the other...you or I might think that he/she might be just slightly curious about my email or just does not want to admit it. If this indeed comes back out as a re-bid, it might be worth someones time to post a "non-Johnson" 1907 sling up for bid with a $600 minimum and see what responses are! I can see the listing now:

ABSOLUTELY NOT A JOHNSON ORIGINAL sling (pic of 1907 - maybe even copy the original post image to make it certain) "but was removed from a JSAR" (just put on a JSAR and that makes it true) and see what kind of bidding response is received. If good, I also have a few 1907 slings that I could put out to bid!

[webmaster 0]

That 'Johnson' Sling....................

It's Back....................................

No "Buy it Now" at $500 showing either.

[webmaster 0]

I asked the vendor 'Pre98' the question "What makes this a Johnson Rifle Sling?".

He replied Pre98@aol.com

it is marked JF and was pulled right off of a 1941 Johnson rifle

I replied:

Thanks for the speedy reply!

Johnson Automatics actually marked their leather goods, "JA" not "JF". Johnson's marked only their early bayonet scabbards (not the NPC type) which were issued with the 1000 rifles sent to Chile, plus the as issued slings for the rifle and LMG. The rifle sling was of a dutch design with a leather thong and brass button for attachment/ adjustment. Factory issued equipment did not include the M1907 pattern U.S. slings, these were mostly retro-fitted by USMC/USN (and removed prior the to rifle's resale or return to the KNIL) or most likely by post-war collectors.

Thanks again,

Jim Pullen

Webmaster/ Owner

The Johnson Rifle Site

We will see what the answer is (if any).

[ArtR 0]

I knew that EBAY must have some sort of policy which prohibits misrepresentation. I think this policy may apply here. Near the bottom of that page is an email link that allows Contact to Customer Support to report listing violations. If this is not a case of "keyword spamming" Quote:"US WW2 USMC M1941 JOHNSON RIFLE SUPER RARE ORIG SLING

SUPER RARE JOHNSON RIFLE MARKED SLING", I do not know what is. Anyone want to take a shot at it? If not, I might take a crack at it. ArtR

[ArtR 0]

PS...if that doesn't fit this one might or they both might.

The seller has been advised at least twice now that what he is selling is not unique, original, or rare. He is being deceptive at the very least.

Listing policies.

ArtR

[Bruce Canfield 0]

Actually, Johnson Automatics did not mark their slings at all. As stated, the sling that is the subject of this thread is NOT a Johnson sling, it is a M1907 sling. Perhaps the "JF" marking on the sling in question means "Johnson/Fake"!

Even if the sling "came off" a Johnson rifle, that means nothing as anyone could have put it on the rifle at any time.

Any decent original M1907 military sling is a desirable item today, but the one being auctioned isn't anything special and I'm not even sure it is "GI".

[Jim Peden 0]

I asked him early on in his first auction about the sling, and referenced the discussion on this site. His reply was

"the buckle is not anything like an o3 sling buckle it is much larger. Do you think those people know everything and have seen everything? get a life."

So I'm now wondering if the sling in question is not only NOT a JSAR sling, but is possibly a foreign copy of a U.S. sling, if the buckle is "much larger".

But, since it "came off a Johnson", why not you all put a cheap knockoff sling on your JSARs, then "take it off" the rifle and sell it as a genuine JSAR sling?

Incidentally, in a subsequent email, he wrote and said,

"By the way if you did post my response on that sight you had better get a good lawyer because I am going to bankrupt you in court."

I found this unsolicited additional email an interesting insight into his general intelligence, not only for the use of the word "sight" instead of "site", but his somewhat less than brilliant understanding of the court system, where generally it is a bankruptcy judge who rules on a bankruptcy petition, and where else would it be than "in court"? Hey, maybe he's a judge, in addition to being a Johnson expert!

[FSSF63Puls 0]

I'm very late to the party but does anyone still have a line on one of these "Johnson Slings" or have additional information about them as to what they were, why the FSSF used them, etc? 

[Bruce Canfield 0]

The wide web sling with leather ends shown on the photo of  the two FSSF "Forcemen' is the correct sling for the M1941 Johnson LMG but was nothing like the leather sling originally fitted to the NPC M1941 Johnson rifles  Here is a view of the original sling on a Johnson LMG.  A similar view of the original leather sling for the M1941 Johnson rifle is shown on Page 95 of the Johnson book.  By the way, the LMG sling shown here belonged to JAMCO official Chandler B. Gardiner. I acquired it from his son, Chandler, Jr., in 2006.  Both the original Johnson rifle and Johnson LMG slings are very rarely seen on the market today.

[matconcrete 0]

I am not one of them but I know there are some talented people on this site, if someone would like to make a repro of this I would very much like one. Thanks ,Phil

[FSSF63Puls 0]

On 1/23/2021 at 10:45 AM, Bruce Canfield said:

The wide web sling with leather ends shown on the photo of  the two FSSF "Forcemen' is the correct sling for the M1941 Johnson LMG but was nothing like the leather sling originally fitted to the NPC M1941 Johnson rifles  Here is a view of the original sling on a Johnson LMG.  A similar view of the original leather sling for the M1941 Johnson rifle is shown on Page 95 of the Johnson book.  By the way, the LMG sling shown here belonged to JAMCO official Chandler B. Gardiner. I acquired it from his son, Chandler, Jr., in 2006.  Both the original Johnson rifle and Johnson LMG slings are very rarely seen on the market today.

Mr. Canfield, 

Is there any way you would be willing to take measurements of the sling and send some more detailed photos? I can provide my email if you don't mind, I had been trying to gather info for a company to make a reproduction for me but we never had an original to use as comparison. 

Also what is the sling? Was it a Dutch cavalry sling or its own entity? I cannot find any information about who made them or what they are designated. 

[Bruce Canfield 0]

The sling was almost certainly purpose-made for the Johnson LMG and was not, to the best of my knowledge, used by any other weapon. I don't think the sling had any particular designation and have never seen any information as to the vendor that made it for Johnson Automatics (I doubt the slings were made in-house).

 Before I would consider providing exact measurements and/or detailed photos, I would have to know more about the company that would manufacture a "reproduction" sling to make sure proper precautions were taken to insure that their products wouldn't, and couldn't, be passed off as originals.  As you know, fake items are a plague in the field of collecting martial arms and I would not foster that in any way.

[ArtR 0]

Yeah, I echo Bruce's concerns. "Reproduction" product passed off as "original, never issued" has become the new and recurring blight on the collectable front. People getting rich off the ignorance of others.

[ryche_me 0]

Echo to both Bruce and Art. I would be interested in a repro sling, especially marked as such, if any are to be done.

Ryche

[FSSF63Puls 0]

Mr. Canfield,

I will message you privately to discuss the details. 

[eb in oregon 0]

An old but interesting thread. One thing I learned in service was that slings get used and abused and replaced quite often. Reading through this thread it makes sense to me that the 1941 Johnson's that the Marines acquired probably came with the slings provided by Cranston Arms for the Dutch contract. It also makes sense that in service (especially in the Pacific Theatre) that those slings wouldn't last all that long as heat and humidity is death to leather products. While at first the only available replacements would probably be the 1907 sling, it too would be subject to the climate, and eventually replaced with the web sling that became more common as the war progressed. So either the 1907 sling or the M1 Garand web sling would be appropriate on a Johnson in my opinion.

However this thread prompted me to check out the "collectible" slings on ebay. There is a (supposedly) 1943 M1 Carbine sling with 21 bidders and the bidding is up to $355.00. Wow, simply wow.

[flyer338 0]

If the reproduction sling project gets off of the ground, please put me down for one.