What type of Johnson rifle do I have???

[wolfy2020 0]

So I own a gun or two and go out to the range on occasion but I am by no means a collector so my knowledge of old guns is VERY limited.

My dad bought a small business not long ago and stored away was in the attic was this rifle. I know it's a Johnson but not sure of anything further than that as it doesn't look like the typical Johnson's Automatic m1941 that I see online. Looking close at the rifle I can tell you a couple things... the metal portion looks like it was wire brush and painted black. The stock looks like it was re-stained and there is a crack near the top of the stock that has been filled/patched with some epoxy looking substance. Also it is missing a screw or two (I had a machinist buddy of my dad's make a few custom screws based on the originals that were still on the rifle).

Only markings are:

* A triangle stamp that says "cranston arms co" on the rear of the upper receiver.

* "J.A. 30-'06" stamped onto the barrel

* A6464 stamped onto the bolt

My questions are:

1.) What type of Johnson is this?

2.) What's it worth??? Even a rough estimate? I'm sure the wire brushing/painting and re-staining of the stock brought the value down a ton.. but in the condition it's in now, what's it worth? I'm asking because I would like to sell it at some point.

3.) Where would someone sell a rifle like this?

Thanks for ANY input at all you can provide!

[ryche_me 0]

Hey That looks like a commercial stock to me. Post war put together maybe. The black paint is not original, interesting though. Guesstimate on value with cracked stock, missing bayonet lug, possible other issues inside depending on whats been screwed with, parts alone $500- $1000. Lets see what the others have to say , interisting looking piece in black. If you decide to sell it post it on the board, there is always guys looking for stuff on here, i know i'm one of them. RYCHE

[wolfy2020 0]

Thanks for the response. That sheds a little light. Do you think that "A6464" on the bolt is the guns serial number???? BTW I decided I am looking to sell it. Maybe I will post it here.

[ryche_me 0]

Hey The serial# would be on the top of the rec. right above the ejection port. The number on the bolt is a serial# but very rarely do those #'s match. The rifles were not built with matching #'s. If you have the serial on the rec. , post it, the big guys have the original log showing the #'s the gun was built with. If it is a prefix serial#, the logs for those were lost long ago (Starting with an A or . If you decide to post the unit for sale please let me know , as i have been looking for a rec. for another project. Good luck and thanks RYCHE

[ryche_me 0]

P.S. It looks like the top of the rec has been ground for a scope, The original rear sight base is gone. Are there any holes in the top? RYCHE

[Brian Alpert 0]

You have a JSAR which has really been butchered. The stock is hopeless and worthless. The bbl is a replacement without bayonet lug. It is missing the rear sight and the rear sight dovetail has been ground off the receiver. Assuming the internal parts are functional, you have a parts set less wood, with an aftermarket bbl and a receiver costing more to restore than it is worth. About all the receiver is good for is mounting a type 2 LMG site base on it and machining it to use as a 41 LMG look-a-like. Value is around $500-750. At least that is all I would pay for it. Here's what the modified receiver with a type 2 LMG sight base looks like.

[wolfy2020 0]

Hi guys thanks for your help so far!

Wow, I can't believe I did just find the serial number located on top of the ejection port! I had looked this gun over and over and couldn't find anything until you guys told me right where to look. The serial number looks like "4940" or possibly "4948" one of the two (the last digit is hard to make out).

I do know all the internals do work. When I first got the gun I took it to a gun smith to have him check if it is operational. He said everything internally measured to within spec and (with my ok) he test fired 3 rounds through the gun and it cycled smoothly and work flawlessly. So I do know that the internals all work. I do have a receipt from the gun smith by the way showing all this including his tests. That is the last time it was fired (this was Sept 2006).

To answer another question I saw... no, I can't find any holes that may have been drilled in the top. I looked it over very thoroughly. I'll attach some more pictures of the receiver area to this post.

So now that we know a little more as far as functionality and we found an actual serial number... any more shots on what this would be worth? Anything I can learn new about the gun from that serial number I just found (I feel like an idiot for missing it before)?

Thanks again guys!

[wolfy2020 0]

One more note... there is a local WW2 military collector guy in my area offering me $800 for it. Think it's a good deal? Or maybe I should wait until I learn a bit more about the rifle? I would hate to sell it to him just to learn it's worth $1500 or something like that.... thanks again and sorry for all the questions!

[Brian Alpert 0]

I just noticed that the top portion of the radiator has been removed also. It would not even do as a potential LMG look-a-like. Grab the $800 and run!

[wolfy2020 0]

So was this at one point a normal johnson automatic and it was just modified down the road? Because the stock doesn't have the "bubble" I see others have near the magazine...

[ryche_me 0]

Hey The stock on your rifle is defiantly an aftermarket or possibly home made. From the photos it appears to be a really worked over military. There weren't JSAR's made in the private sector until after WWII. Most of the parts were bought up by a company called Winfield and assembled into hunting rifles. These were mostly sold in the back of sporting magazines at the time. A really nice Winfield could cost as much as $2000 to $3000 to put back to military specs, depending on what was done to it. There is a term that applies to homemade rifles especially Johnson's, Called bubba or Bubba'ed. This usually applies to rifles that are so over done or just plain screwed up, that they are virtually impossible to put back to original specs. Most of the time its just not cost effective. From the photos yours falls into this catagory. As Brian said in the earlier post it's almost useless as an military possibility. I would take Brians opinion as he is one of the more knowledgeable people on this board. which is not to say there aren't others, they are not in this thread yet. I hope this helps a little with your search. RYCHE

[webmaster 0]

Take the butt plate off the rifle and photograph the internals of the butt please. This may be an original stock which some enterprising soul has become over excited with a belt sander upon. In my opinion the stock looks original just reduced in size by mechanical sanding. The area to the rear of the magazine housing looks as if the cheek laminations have been sanded down but you can still see where they were laminated.

[Joseph Scott 0]

Is the handguard gone? First picture looks like it. If handguard is gone, I would not consider it salvageable. Otherwise, I could fabricate missing dovetail for a rear sight for about $200. A typical restoration of sporters averages $800-$1100, not $2-3000.

[webmaster 0]

Joe,

Yes the radiator has been cut down to the bottom rail level.

[wolfy2020 0]

Here's the butt of the stock... man finding out what was done to this rifle is a little... upsetting.

Also, I recently took off the front stock and found this marking on the bottom of the barrel... It's a circle with a sword in it and an "I" on one side of the sword and an "O" on the other.

[webmaster 0]

Original barrel and stock. That's two good points for your rifle at least, though the stock is pretty much trash now. It's a shame someone 'modified' it and the fore-end so much.

Does the barrel still have the notches cut into the barrel for the bayonet lug? They should be about 4 inches back from the muzzle. This will be a good indicator as to whether the barrel has been cut back too.

What is the serial number of the barrel? It looks like its either 0558 or 0558 M. There is a reason I ask this. Can you locate any more serial numbers apart from the barrel and bolt? Look in the main site for basic stripping instructions.

[wolfy2020 0]

Original barrel and stock. That's two good points for your rifle at least, though the stock is pretty much trash now. It's a shame someone 'modified' it and the fore-end so much.

Does the barrel still have the notches cut into the barrel for the bayonet lug? They should be about 4 inches back from the muzzle. This will be a good indicator as to whether the barrel has been cut back too.

What is the serial number of the barrel? It looks like its either 0558 or 0558 M. There is a reason I ask this. Can you locate any more serial numbers apart from the barrel and bolt? Look in the main site for basic stripping instructions.

Yes the 2 notches are still there near the front of the barrel. The number stamped on the bottom of the barrel is 00558K I believe. There is "A6464" stamped on the bolt. And on the top of the receiver (above the ejection port) is the number "A4940" that one is a little difficult to make out... but I believe that's what it says. That's all the numbers I have found so far.

[Joseph Scott 0]

With an original barrel that doesn't seem cut, plus the other useable parts, I would put retail value in the $1200-1600 range for the parts. Even modified, it is still legally a rifle and rules apply to the receiver.

[ryche_me 0]

Hey Joe i miscalculated a little on restoration at 2-3000. I was thinking if he went looking for parts the hard way, like me before i found you guys.(you know the dealer guys at premium prices.) Now its my turn for questions!!! I was led to believe the IO on the barrel was for the old Inter Ordinance company, This is incorrect? If its not an I.O. barrel what did it stand for???? I had heard years ago that Inter Ordinance had converted several Garand barrels to Johnson config. Is this yet one more of the lies and bad stories that circulate about JSAR's??? I love a good discussion where i can learn something new or correct bad info... RYCHE

[webmaster 0]

No the marking was applied at the factory as the Johnson Automatics proof. The import of the letters 'IO' or "OI' is not know n at the moment, but it is not 'Inter Ordnance'. It is also not the proof or acceptance stamp of the KNIL, Netherlands Military. I have researched this out extensively with contacts in the Netherlands and no-one at this time seems to know what it means.

[webmaster 0]

With an original barrel that doesn't seem cut, plus the other useable parts, I would put retail value in the $1200-1600 range for the parts. Even modified, it is still legally a rifle and rules apply to the receiver.

As the receiver is modified from original it cannot be sold as a C&R rifle either. As the law regarding C&R rifles say that they must me in original military configuration manufactured prior to 1945.

[wolfy2020 0]

I am really enjoying the input that I have gotten here and I have to thank you guys a bunch for all the help and time you've taken to help me out. I guess my initial confusion started because the gun was so "bubba'd" that it didn't even look like the typical Johnson to me. I hate to see a rifle looking like the one I have when it was once such a beautiful gun. I can't imagine why someone would have modified it the way they did.

Anyway I am still a little confused as to what it could be worth. Some people are telling me they wouldn't even think of paying more than $750 for it while others are saying $1200-1600 for parts alone. That's a big difference.... any ideas?

And thanks again for all the help thus far. I hope when I do decide on a price I can sell it to someone who will treat it better than it's been treated in the past!

[Brian Alpert 0]

In my opinion, the best way to determine the value is to part it out, assuming the parts are functional:

original bbl (no bayonet lug and probably cut) $300 and up depending on bore condition

Mainspring, tube, screw and buffer assembly $175

Hammer and sear block assembly (SARCO) $95

Trigger and safety assembly (SARCO) $25

Bolt stop plate & plunger (SARCO) $25

Bolt stop (Hard to find) $25

Ejector assembly (hard to find) $75

Magazine assembly complete (SARCO) $200

Butt plate (SARCO) $12

Lock Cam assembly with link (SARCO) $95

Complete bolt, with FP & extractor (hard to find) $300

Operating handle $125

Rear sling swivel (hard to find) $20

Cross pins (2) $10

Screws (5) $5

Stock, hammer block and TG screws(4) $10

Clip latch forestock $25

bolt catch (if present) $25

recoil blocks and screws $25

It comes to a little over $1500. Parting it out is a lot of work and many of the parts are hard to sell. What something is worth and what one will give you for it are 2 different things. As I said before, I would take the $750 you were offered. Maybe others on this Board will offer more.

[webmaster 0]

It's like when you buy a classic car. I can buy a 1950's Austin taxi which has seen better days(which I own 3 of) for about $500. I can restore it for $15,000 or part it out for about $5000.

value is in the eye of the owner. Anything is restorable but at what price.

[ryche_me 0]

YO webmaster That is good to know!!!! As i said bad story or bad info one never knows until its corrected by someone in the know. Yours is better than what i have so far. new info is always good , especially with what we don't know about the gun. THANKS RYCHE