Crested JSARs

[Brian Alpert 0]

One of the more interesting areas of the JSAR saga are the Crested rifles.  The most common are the “W” crested so called Queen’s Guard Carbines.  The W standing for Queen Wilhelmina  of the Netherlands.  These fakes….they were never factory produced… originated from a Northern California gun shop.  They were very nicely finished, with matching #s on the receiver, bbl, bolt and locking cam.  The bbl was carbine length and the buttstock similar in contour to standard JSARs.  

It is questionable how many were produced.  I have one as does Joseph Scott.  I am sure there maybe a few more out there.  The crests were obviously produced with  pantograph as comparison of 2 side by side revealed them to be of different sizes.

In the late 90’s they were a hot topic with some insisting on originality of these carbines and others even opining that if they weren’t really factory made, they should have been!

I also have a Mexican crested LMG Look a like and pictures of a Mexican crested carbine.  Recently a Cuban crested JSAR appeared on Gunbroker.  The crest appeared to be hand engraved. 

Of interest would be how many other "Crested" JSARs are out there.  Lets hear from you if you have one.

For some reason the pictures did not post

[Joseph Scott 0]

How I bought the story (and gun).  On a trip to the large gun show in Pomona, Ca, (now closed) I found the "Queen's Guard Carbine" on a table of a younger person (25-35yrs) who said he and a friend had gone to a antique furniture sale and found six of these carbines.  The furniture buyers were not interested in the lot and so they bought the guns.  According to him, they were made for the palace guards but were not shipped due to Nazi takeover.  The finish is "English enamel" over Parkerizing. It is a perfect blue-gray and very appealing.  Being new to Johnson collecting at the time, I bought the story and the gun.  Just as I finished buying it, a person from europe came rushing up with cash he had obtained by cashing his traveler's checks.  Boy, I thought I had something special.  I have since concluded, the young person was a setup seller for the person who made these fakes with several different crests.  Brian and I compared three versions side-by-side and could tell they were not die stamped, but engraved by pantograph.  Over the years, there have been several float through auctions.

[Ed Johnson 0]

Walt Liss and I have discussed this more than once. In the Canfield/Lamoreaux/Johnson book "Johnson Rifles and Machine Guns" initially published in 2002, the authors clarify that only one of these rifles was ever made at Dad's factory in RI. Walt takes the position that these "fake" Queens Carbines could more reasonably be considered as attractive "replicas" of that model and simply treated as such in monetary value. By no means, however, in my opinion, should they be considered more valuable than a standard Johnson Rifle with proper provenance.

I think that some of us conjectured that perhaps 8 of these were assembled by the North California gun shop.  My understanding is that the shop may have also deliberately tried to assemble these rifles with matching numbers on most of the parts, such as done with WWII German Luger pistols and others, to further increase their value. As we know, the Johnson factory did not do this. The numbers were random, and then logged in that fashion.

Perhaps we can only hope that people will consult this Website before considering a purchase of any Johnson Rifle at an auction or flea market, etc.       ej

[Yuccacapt343 0]

I personally have never seen these rifles for sale nor had I heard of them prior to becoming a member of this forum. But with that being said, I didn't know this site existed prior to purchasing my first JSAR. While I did most of my research online prior to purchasing, I never found this website.

Just for fun, I just put '1941 Johnson' in the Google search bar. This website wasn't mentioned until almost the bottom of page 6.

My point being with all my rambling is I would hope that if a known fake comes up for auction on any site that we would report it to the administrators of that site.

Just my thoughts...

Wayne

[Brian Alpert 0]

We do!  Unfortunately, the auction house takes the seller's description.  Case in point.  Several years ago some "rare Johnson prototypes" from our friend in Southern California were offered byRock Island auction, supposedly one of the more reputable gun auction houses.  They were informed that these were fakes but stated it was their policy to go with the seller's description.

These fake "rare prototypes" will be the subject of a future post I am putting together

[Ed Johnson 0]

Brian is correct on the Rock Island auction items. Sadly, it is to the financial advantage of the auction houses to project the most favorable info (and not necessarily the most accurate) on any product sold because of the higher commissions involved. Some of the auction houses will simply ignore any attempts to correct mistakes, and some dealers will even become belligerent when challenged.

I have debated how best to handle it, but legal actions on an individual basis can get expensive, so the best recourse is what we do here; guide people and "let the buyer beware." Our 2002 book (2nd edition in 2006) mentioned above is also very helpful on these matters.

Yes, money can be considered the root of all evil......