M1941 Jonhson barrel with very little markings?

[Motor7 0]

Hi guys, nice site here.

I acquired this barrel at an estate auction of a friend of mine. He was a US military rifle collector and a couple of years ago sent his M1941 Johnson to an auction house along with a large part of his collection. I had a opportunity to purchase his rifle for $2500 but could not justify that cost since I was building my house at the time. Obviously that was a poor decision since the price has shot up since then. I did not know that he had a second barrel and was puzzled to see any barrel come up for bids at the auction(he was not a armorer at all). To be honest, I didn't even recognize the barrel until I got it home & made some inquires.

Anyway, unless I can buy a receiver for this barrel I don't think I will have any use for it. So my question is what is a fair price to ask? Attached are the photos & other then the serial number of 6998E and a what looks like a "M" cast into the barrel collar(middle) there are no other stamps on this barrel. I googled around today and saw quite a few barrels that all had various stamps on them. Since this one is virtually "neked" I am wondering why it is this way? Rifling is good, overall condition is good. Here are the pic's:

[Motor7 0]

More:

[Motor7 0]

Last one's:

I stuck a 30-06 bullet in as far as it would go then measured it. Between the crown & the brass case is between 3/16th's & 1/4" of bullet showing:

[oldtirediron 0]

Believe this to be a repro barrel with original mounting hardware on it --- Are there any markings on the right side of the chamber area?? I am interested for a shooter barrel --What is the bore condition??

[Motor7 0]

I was looking in the wrong place. It's a 1941 oem barrel in 30-06:

I knew it had to be when I saw the witness marks left by the bayonet:

[Motor7 0]

I cleaned the chamber with a brass bore brush & same with the barrel. everything looks to be in veyr good condition as i can see no pitting. Sorry for the crappy pictures but getting pic's of a bore is not easy:

And from the chamber side:

[Motor7 0]

As far as I can see, the only negatives about this barrel are some armorer marks on the bayonet collar:

And some handling marks on the side of the front sight:

[Brian Alpert 0]

Oldtirediron is correct. It is a replacement bbl. utilizing original sight, bayonet lug, front and rear"collars". These are fairly common and were made using 03A3, Garand or other bbls. The value is somewhere between $300 - 500.

[Motor7 0]

Thanks Brian. Was this a production replacement by a military contractor, or some kind of aftermarket outfit?

[Motor7 0]

I've posted this up for sale on Ebay. I have a question on the chamber & I had already dropped a 30.06 round in there & at first glance it looked like it fit. In responding to the question I took a flashlight and checked it again. In my experience the chamber looks odd, but then again many things about the Johnson were outside of the box in design. There is a "C" collar inside the breech wrapped around the chamber. I took some pictures, so maybe those here that have oem barrels can tell me if this even looks right:

I appreciate all the info I have learned here and it is greatly appreciated. I have passed all of it on so hopefully a buyer can make an informed decision on this barrel.

[Motor7 0]

In other words, how can the round sit up on that lip of the "C" ? This leaves a unsupported raised section of brass that is almost 50% not contacting the collar or the chamber. I'm not a gunsmith, but was a armorer at one time and I don't like what I see.

[emmagee1917 0]

I don't have one in front of me , but it looks less like a "C" and more like the cut on the "O" for the extractor claw to me .

If you think this is alot , look into a M1917 / M1919 sometime.

Other thoughts anyone ?

Chris

[Motor7 0]

I agree it's the extractor cut, but man it's rather large(wide). The only thing I have to compare it to is a Garand, Colt M4 & a Mini-14...none of them look anything like this. And another thing, the "C" is beveled all the way around so I don't see the need for the cut-out...it might as well have been a "O" with a full bevel. I'm beginning to wonder if this is a 30.06 chamber or something els.

[M48TANKER 0]

Well, I just awakened. I'm starting my first cup of coffee, so my brain is not in gear yet. My first guess would be 30.06 and the wide extractor cut might be necessary for clearance during bolt face rotation?

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will tell us. If I get real energetic I'll get out my LMG barrel and my spare JSAR barrel and compare them. That would involve climbing up to the top of my cabinetry and getting down a heavy box of Johnson "stuff". These barrels, by the way, are "in the white" and while in very decent condition, would require parkerizing.....a springtime project for me. (are they for sale? For the right money of course)

Parkerizing inside a closed shop can ruin a lot of other innocent bystanding tools . Or so I've been told. The acid fumes sort of migrate around.

M48TANKER

[ryche_me 0]

Tanker: you are correct the extra spacing is for extractor clearance on bolt rotation. The AK works the same way. And has a almost 90 deg. cleartance for the extractor. Stoner eliminated most of this desigining the AR, however its there in most larger caliber weapons using a turning bolt.

[amish-bob 0]

Would this barrel be acceptable for a semi lmg project?

Thanks

Rob S in PA

[Motor7 0]

Ahh, yes I did not think about bolt rotation, this explains things...thanks. Another member also said that the case is also not supposed to be flush with the end of the chamber and that some of the case is supposed to stick out slightly. So the 30-06 headspaces on the neck or tapered part of the cartridge?

[oldtirediron 0]

Sorry guys what you are looking at is the back end of a 1903 Springfield type barrel-- They probably turned the threads down or off and re-threaded the original barrel-- And then they re-fit and re-head spaced the barrel extension/bolt to the chamber depth-- Naturally anyone doing this would logically space the original barrel extractor cut out to a point where the Johnson extractor would clearance the Springfield extractor cone-- That is what the back of the barrel with the extractor cut out is called. This way you could probably use the original head space depth with a little luck--

Any of you guys that ever read up on these rifles would have seen in the pre-war 1941 Johnson Literature that Mel Johnson himself said any barrel could be used as a 1941 Johnson rifle replacement with adequate machining-- He said if I remember correctly-- any 1903 Springfield,1917 Enfield or Mauser military barrels could be used in this function as well as well as for caliber conversions to 7MM, 8MM, and .30-06 caliber---

Now looking at the back of the barrel pictures the replacement barrel has has the sharp shoulder edge turned off-- Hopefully whomever did this conversion did it correctly and a Johnson bolt should hopefully head space-- If the chamber is not deep enough the head of the cartridge will be un-supported and that would be a very dangerous situation-- If this is the case the case head would be unsupported and rupture on firing-- So I think this barrel will need to be carefully checked out-- This could be the reason the chamber appears not deep enough from the pictures-- I have a 1941 Johnson barrel and the chamber on the barrel eats a cartridge case up to nearly the cartridge rim--FWIW !!

Actually on further thinking about this, the barrel should have been turned flat like a Johnson 1941 barrel or a Mauser barrel; then the re-threading operation should have taken place-- This would give the correct lock up between the bolt face and the rear of the chamber--

I am not posting this as a knock on this barrel or the seller; But as a warning as I see a possible unsafe condition in this barrel-- If the headspace is wrong there could be a real danger if you chamber a round and shoot it as a case head failure could be dangerous in a Johnson; as least as dangerous as the same problem in a bolt action rifle-- But I am not sure that the barrel extension would survive this problem so be careful with this or any other Johnson barrel that may have been reworked!!

I have worked on many AR-15 / M-16 rifle barrels that had a case head failure. Most of these resulted in a cracked barrel extension and a cracked upper receiver-- the barrels were mostly salvageable with a new barrel extension installed, and a replacement upper receiver- Some of these failed with factory ammunition; others failed with reloads-- these were mostly in Pre-1980's firearms and since then the barrel extensions have been subject to magnetic particle inspection and different machining operations that eliminated incipient cracks in the barrel extensions --these cracks probably opened up witht he high pressure from the ruptured cartridge cases!!

Take a good look at this picture that was posted above; because you may see what I am talking about a little clearer!!

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj141/motorseven/Garand/Grenades%20cheek%20pads%20slings/barrel006.jpg

[Motor7 0]

OT, I appreciate all input and no offense taken here at all. It is a risky proposition buying a none oem barrel on-line without having it in you hands and knowing what to look for. Since I came into this cold, my eyes and ears are wide open and I am passing on this info to the prospective buyers. I have posted doubts on this chamber on my listing because I want the buyer to do his homework and make the best of an informed decision as possible.

Since it's hard to measure things with a round in the pipe, I took a small paper clip, straightened it and bent 1/16th of the end at 90 degrees. I used that as kind of a feeler gauge to check the space between the collar and the case rim(about 1/32nd) and the chamber & rim(1/16th-1/8th). these are estimated based on what I feel and are for sure not proper measurements I assume there is a head-space gauge that does all this, but I don't have one.

Keep the thoughts, experiences and opinions coming, this is really some new stuff I am learning. The barrel already has an opening bid which I think was fair, so if it does not go a penny higher I'm ok with that.

[Joseph Scott 0]

The chamber entrance appears to be correct for a Johnson. The drawing calls for the end of the barrel to be 0.640" from the shoulder. With the correct taper and extractor cut, the chamber is reamed for headspace with the collar installed. That is why the collar and barrel numbers were matched. The original taper is 96 deg and goes 1/8" deep down to the bottom of the extractor cut. The cut comes out horizontal straight 90 deg from top of entrance and down at 30 deg for extractor rotation clearance.

The clue to being a replacement barrel is around the taper pins on lug/sight showing they have been punched out before. Also the "armours" marks indicate to me that parts have been removed from another barrel with a hammer instead of in a press Also the chamber taper entrance is not a smooth surface. I have similar problem on cutting a smooth taper without the special 96 deg reamer required and have to polish the ramp surface by hand.

The base of a .30-06 case is solid for a certain distance and does not require chamber support all the way to rim. If headspace checks good, it should work fine. Many gunsmiths made Johnson barrels but I have never seen one with any marks as to who made it. All original barrels had the factory markings matching the collar number and the Johnson proof mark. Some members may know that I have a number of original factory gages including a "go" and "no go" gage for the 96 deg. cone taper area. Their manufacturing skills were outstanding and first class all the way.

[Motor7 0]

Mr Scott, your just answered a couple of other questions I had and thanks.

Moderators I hope you don't mind but I privately referenced this thread to some prospective buyers that had some of the the same questions I did. Hopefully the site will gain some fellow Johnson owners in the near future.