Bidding on a Johnson receiver and barrel

[M48TANKER 0]

I'm bidding on this auction and want some input. What is the significance of the "D" prefix to the serial number? I suspect it didn't come from the factory that way. I hope it doesn't mean "D-fective" Bid if you want but I'm not going to let it go cheap....hehehe. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=392885126

[ryche_me 0]

Good luck buddy... We already know that that is not the correct barrel or some one has changed the ft. sight, but it looks to be worth it. It looks like it has a B prefix with a D stamped in front, Am i correct or do my eyes fail me???? Ryche

[M48TANKER 0]

Your eyes are "all-seeing." Yes, a "D" has been added in front of the serial number. It must have been done on "D-Day"....hehehe. Or maybe the D-utch did it. I'm not sure changing a serial number would be legal today? (Altering a serial number?) But, who's to say just who did it, why or when. The seller reports that the bore is in very good shape with strong lands and grooves, shiney and no pitting. That's about all he knows about it. Supposed to have come from an "estate." (is that the same as someone's junk box?) It seems like most of what I've bought lately has come from an estate. You'll want to be sure to come to the auction of MY estate....that will be one interesting auction. I really doubt that I will be able to buy it. It's hard to justify continuing to throw money at guns and bayonets. My floors are sagging now under the weight of my gun safes.

[ryche_me 0]

I would love to have it, but i'm in no cash position at this time. depending on how the bidding goes it could be a great deal. Ryche

[M48TANKER 0]

I've already got everything I'd need to finish the thing up into a functioning rifle. It would be a great investment for me. Going to have to convince the "War Department" that SHE really needs this one too. My wife was the instigator who caused me to buy the first couple of 1941 Johnsons because she saw a picture of a Marine running through a creek carrying a Johnson. She LOVES Marines and liked the look of the potbelly magazine on the rifle...cute she said. Like me, she wants one of most every military weapon we see. But, unlike me, one is enough for her. The difference is that I think if one is good then a dozen are better. (just like roses or diamonds)

[ryche_me 0]

Same applies to dogs Right??? (i have 5). You should get that auction piece then throw one of your parked correct barrels on it...Ryche

[oldtirediron 0]

Are you fellow's for real?? This rifle?? ( Receiver and barrel) Has an altered serial number which is a Felony Period!! Buy it but if you get caught with it they will confiscate it and you will be charged with a felony-- No if's and ands or butt's!! but it may be your Butt in a wringer here!! Any body else out there have or seen another Johnson with a "D" and or "DB" serial number range rifle!! Probably was a stolen rifle and now it isn't?? Why would the serial number be so cleverly altered?? Someone knew something was off at some point and stripped that gun for parts!! So go ahead and throw your money away because I see someone taking a fall at some point on that "Johnson" and if you do take a fall it will be a felony and you will have no more firearms--PERIOD!!

[M48TANKER 0]

Hey Old Tired Iron, Quote from my previous posting of 2/12/2014 in response to Ryche_me: ("Your eyes are "all-seeing." Yes, a "D" has been added in front of the serial number. It must have been done on "D-Day"....hehehe. Or maybe the D-utch did it. I'm not sure changing a serial number would be legal today? (Altering a serial number?) But, who's to say just who did it, why or when.) So yes, we are for real...and we are already acutely aware of the possibility of this being a gun with an altered serial number...a felony to do that! (Or can the manufacturer do that in-house? before sale?) The question is: "Who did it, when, and for what purpose?" Is there the possibility of this being a toolroom creation at the Johnson factory many years ago? I really doubt it, but can it be proved otherwise? I won't be taking the chance. Do you know of a database of stolen firearms that is easy to check? If so, why don't you check it and report back to us. There are many pages offering "lists of stolen firearms" when you search the internet. But just try to go to one of the webpages and see if you can actually find any info. I managed to check one database and that set of serial numbers did not show up as stolen. With Johnson's history of prototypes, one off's, and other peculiar creations...who's to say absolutely how accurate any serial number range may be. Now I agree with you about the possibility of the altered serial number being bogus. In my post above I already stated that altering a serial number is now a felony. I advised the seller of your opinion and we'll see if he pays any attention to your suspicions. Thanks for saving us from ourselves.

[oldtirediron 0]

What ever !! You and anyone else should know that it doesn't matter who, why, what or when because possession is the problem here!!! I bought a Garand with a X-2XXX serial number on it; after it was confiscated; investigated; AND it was returned because the investigation showed that that rifle was a stolen from US Government M-1 rifle; serial number was removed; someone was caught with it and then re-numbered in the early 1950's by Rock Island Arsenal-- I even was given the original serial number by the ATF when the rifle was returned-- That is why I have the information because I was real nervous until the rifle was returned to me and all they had to say was ""Possession"" was the problem !! That stupid rifle almost cost me a $20,000.00 Minimum lawyer fee; and I even told them who I had purchased it from!!

[M48TANKER 0]

Well said. Even if you are in the right, the cost of proving it can be devastating. Who needs that? Thanks for speaking from experience. You are indeed a gentleman and a scholar.

[amish-bob 0]

So, who is bidding?

[Ed Johnson 0]

Not to belabor a sore point, but in reference to the M1 Rifle mentioned by "OldTireIron" above, may I ask about the activity involving Rock Island Arsenal renumbering the rifle? Was this performed by them legally? Who authorized them to re-number it? And were they the ones who sold you the rifle? If you prefer to answer me privately, use E-mail address: edwardr.johnson72@gmail.com Thank you. Ed J

[M48TANKER 0]

I decided not to proceed and let someone else have it. I did have it run through the NCIC by two different law enforcement agencies and it came up clean. So it's not stolen. The "serial number issue" is anybody's guess. I do think the alteration probably make it less attractive to a collector. Maybe not? I did see where some old time Johnson fans were bidding today and I wish them good fortune.

[Brian Alpert 0]

It went for $1565. Not a bad price considering the bbl with MG front sight was worth $700. It was reported to have a nice bore and could easily be converted with a rifle sight and bayonet lug. If I had needed the bbl, I would have bid.

[jayhovers 0]

I gave it a shot but came up short. Probably just as well, I really don't need another project right now. In terms of the added letter being an "altered" serial number, I vote for D for Dutch, or - you notice how the last digit on all serial numbers is always raised, after stamping over 25,000 rifles, the stamping machine was getting a bit cantankerous and got stuck and gave the same number to two rifles. The D stands for Double. Considering that no B prefix serial numbers are known to survive, there would be no way for the BATF to prove that the D could not have been added at the factory.

[siebert1 0]

I am fairly new to the johnson, but i am confused, " No B prefix serial numbers are known to survive"? I currently just purchased a sporter with a B prefix. Info Please. Thanks

[jayhovers 0]

I should have said that no records have yet been found on B prefix rifles. There are records for no letter and some A prefix rifles.

[oldtirediron 0]

Basically answering Ed Johnson's posting; Rock Island Arsenal, renumbered many firearms that were recoverd by law enforcement agencies after WWII was over and even before it even started-- The most stolen firearm of WWI era was the 45 automatic pistol and most showed up in private possession with the serial number and or US Property removed; Rock Island renumbered the 1911 and the Colt 380 pocket pistol, most are seen with an X number and these are listed in the Springfield Research Publications along with the M-1 Garands and Carbines ! Remember after WWII unless you had a bonafide government bill of sale any USGI weapon in your possession could be confiscared ""ON Sight"" because the government had not sold any or many except to say some officers! 1903 springfield's had been sold since 1915 from the arsenals but the M-1 Garand and Carbine had not been sold at all and were condsidered contraband-- The 1911 Colt was a different story and a one point the ruling was any 1911 with US Property was subject to confiscation, but that was changed a few years down the road like in the 1950's! That is whay there are so many nice 1911 pistols floating around with the US Property marks removed!! I have seen these markings so expertly removed that you would swear they were never there!! I once had an X- numbered almost brand new Springfield Armory 1911 ; It was evidently an old government reblue with an X Serial number; and sold through the DCM in 1961!!

[oldtirediron 0]

Basically answering Ed Johnson's posting; Rock Island Arsenal, renumbered many firearms that were recoverd by law enforcement agencies after WWII was over and even before it even started-- The most stolen firarms of WWI era was the 45 automatic pistol and most showed up in private possession with the serial number and or US Property removed; Rock Island renumbered the 1911 and the Colt 380 pocket pistol, most are seen with an X number and these are listed in the Springfield Research Publications along with the M-1 Garands and Carbines ! Remember after WWII unless you had a bonafide government bill of sale any USGI weapon in your possession could be confiscared ""ON Sight"" because the government had not sold any or many except to say some officers! 1903 springfield had been sold since 1915 from the arsenals but the M-1 Garand and Carbine had not been sold at all and were condsidered contraband-- The 1911 Colt was a different story and a one point the ruling was any 1911 with US Property was subject to confiscation, but that was changed a few years down the road like in the 1950's! That is whay there are so many nice 1911 pistols floating around with the US Property marks removed!! I have seen these markings so expertly removed that you would swear they were never there!! I once had an X- numbered almost brand new Springfield Armory 1911 ; It was evidently an old government reblue with an X Serial number; and sold through the DCM in 1961!!

[Ed Johnson 0]

Reply to "OldTireIron" above....thank you for the reply. Much appreciated. What raised my concerns was that a few years ago, RIA advertised some Johnson "Prototypes" or "experimental" rifles et al which many of us felt were questionable. More than one Johnson Website Reader brought this to our attention. So, in an attempt to be fair, I personally went to the effort of E-mailing, faxing and US mailing to RIA a letter of inquiry, pointing out what we felt could be some discrepancies. I also made a point of introducing myself as a representative of the Johnson family, being Melvin Johnson's 2nd son, etc. My inquiries went completely unanswered, which I felt was a very inappropriate response. I therefore came to the conclusion that the management of RIA was perhaps more interested in selling Johnson Rifles et al for the highest possible bid price for their commissions, thus in essence encouraging bidders to "buy the STORY, not the gun." Following legal advice, I then simply relayed this opinion to all those readers who had made inquiries to us and left it at that. However, I continue to be somewhat vigilant whenever RIA is mentioned on this website. Conversely, I have been told by others with more recent experience that RIA is a reputable firm. This is as far as I will go on this topic today, but I am again reminded of the old saying..."Let the Buyer Beware" and the more local adage...."Buy the Gun, but NOT the Story." Thanks very much again for your input and reply. Ed J

[oldtirediron 0]

To clear up a lttle point of confusion; RIA Auction house is not Rock Island Arsenal-- The one and only original Rock Island Arsenal is an old military arsenal not a knock off auction house that is out there to make piles of money selling other people's stuff-- I have no point of contention with the auction house but I attended many government surplus auctions at the Arsenal and they are definately not related to each other in any way shape or form except the Auction house is using the long trusted name of the Arsenal with a play on verbage to possibly confuse people much like the company Springfield Armory in Gemeseo using Springfield Armory in Massachuetts revered name as a patented product line name !